Alot of People who are successful came from shitty childhoods. Gives them Motivation.

@Aisle: Not only that, but he's incorrect anyway

You would be correct if we were referring to all children waiting to be adopted. However, we're referring to newborns. It's factual that there is, I guess you could call it a shortage, of newborns. Everyone and their mother, and their mother's mother, wants to adopt a newborn baby. Yes, there are lists miles long. If we were talking about kids 5+ in this discussion, your point would be valid...as for now, no, it's not.

Very well put agreement. Fact is society needs to change before any legislation could benifit our society. I have been argueing this point in many forms, this is just another area where that logic applies. Education is the key to succefull implimentation of legislation. You can make and or change all the laws you want, but if the general public is not educated on the situation at hand, all you are doing is cleaning the books, not society...

^Read the post right above yours...his points were invalid.

yeah^^ to everything above..everything Phaze stated was exactly what i was going to cover...abortion sucks and honestly i think it should be a murder charge..

Unsafe sex is having sex without "protection" against STD's.

That is complete bullshit when it comes to "responsibility" of becoming a parent. Kids don't think about the risks involved. Well, at one time or another most people won't think about the risks of something also. By saying "If Two People Are Going To Have Unsafe Sex...Then They Obviously Think That They Are Responsible For The Risks Of Having A Baby, And Taking Care Of It..." you are saying that you have never done anything wrong, and never will.

And back to the whole part about having sex without the use of some sort of birth control device, they are not 100% effective. So what about those people who do get pregnant and wore condoms?

^It's still a consequence of their actions nonetheless. As I stated before...they made their bed, now they can lie in it.

If abortion was made illegal, you would have 1.5 million orphans available(per year) - 500,000 people are currenlty on the mile long waiting list(total) = 1 million excess babies. Since all the people who have gotten their infants are now satisfied next year you will have maybe 100,000 new people who want infants, yet another 1.5 million infants will be available plus in addition to 1 million 1 yr olds from the year before.

Yes a child has a better chance alive rather than dead. Can't really argue that. However, if unwilling pregnant mothers know that the state is willing to spend whatever it takes to take care of orphans it is significantly more difficult trying to convince people to be responcible. They'll just give kids up for adoption instead of having abortions. Further, they won't care about the health of the child since they're giving it up neways and so many will smoke, drink, and do drugs throughout the pregnancy as well. Call me a bastard if you want but I believe a better end for society and children in the future justifies abortion as an evil, yet necessary means.

I have respect for you an all man, but how disrespectful. You just called a child a "consequence". And is that fair to the baby? To grow up as a "mistake"? Please, that kids life will be shit.

You're going by statistics involving older orphans as well. Therfore making your point here invalid. As I stated before...and checked just to be sure. There are a lack of infants to supply the waiting parents anxious to adopt.



Uhh, how about no. They still have to carry the baby for 9 months. I'd say that would be more of a deciding factor as to whether or not they worry about getting pregnant again. More difficult to convince people to be responsible? So making them go through the 9 months and labor pains would make them forget about their responsibility more than just saying here...pay us some money and we'll kill your baby.



Virtually you're entire post is a huge compilation of moronic ideas and skepticisms as to what would "come about if abortion were not allowed". News Flash....abortion used to not be allowed. Making your entire post a feeble attempt to justify your thinking.

Sorry, this is a very touchy subject for me. My brother's considering aborting his child and I'm trying to convince him it's a mistake.

The child is a consequence. HOwever harsh that may sound, it's the truth. You gotta consider though, the majority of children in the world today are mistakes. My brother and I were both mistakes...we've turned out fine. I'm almost done with my Freshman year in college with 4 majors and 2 minors. My brother has 2 majors and 1 minor...also almost completed with his Freshman year of college. We've both lived great lives. Our parents were divorced and other bullshit like that happened. That happens all the time though. Our quality of life was no worse than a lot of other people out there. We've had our hardships, of course, who doesn't. However, a mistake has just a good a chance of leading a good life as does a planned child.

EDIT: My brother and his girlfriend....didn't sound right how I have it in the post.

a lot of you gave pretty good points about abortion. I think lethargic gave the best one. Here is how i will put it simply: According to the US government murder is against the law. Murder is defined as the "unlawful premeditated killing of a human being." When a baby is about to be aborted, it is premeditated.. the abortion is planned out. It has been proven that the life form being aborted is in fact a developing human being. So anyone that gets an abortion, is killing a developing human being, aka murder. For any of you who say that this is ok, because it is only developing, then i say that it is ok to murder Mentally retarded people because they developed incorrectly.

think about that. pz.

and an article i came across about abortion... please read, i think the point will come acroos to you like it did to me..

Let me begin by saying that we are a schizophrenic society in America. Case in point: We will fly a deformed newborn baby by helicopter and jet hundreds of miles to perform a series of remarkable operations, knowing full well that from a practical standpoint, the possibility of real success is remote. And the same hospital that will take such care for that newborn, defective baby will permit its doctors to take the life of a child yet unborn that has every prospect of good health. We will ship food to starving nations overseas. At the same time, we'll supply arms to that nation's enemy to kill those people we are feeding. We'll feed another nation of starving people beset by famine, and we'll make no attempt through information to control their population by contraception. We'll stop a cholera epidemic by vaccine in a country unable to feed itself so that the people can survive cholera in order to die of starvation. We'll struggle to save the life of a 1-1/2 pound baby in the neonatal unit of a hospital, and we will in that same hospital, permit physicians to destroy infants yet unborn. I submit to you there is a craziness, there is a schizophrenia to many of the things we do and permit in our society. The United States Supreme Court in Roe vs. Wade has decreed that abortion is legal. An unborn child has no rights. It cannot defend itself, it cannot speak in protest, it can offer no resistance to any kind of abortion surgery or procedure; but according to the United States Supreme Court, that's all right. It does not have the right to exist if his or her potential mother does not want the child to exist.

some people use abortions as condoms. like 'fuck it if she gets pregnent then she'll get an abortion" thats just plain wrong. in the words of my moms "god don't make mistakes" if you get pregnent then it was meant to happen, there are thousands of women that can't get pregnent, make their life better give them your child if u dont want him/her. I met a girl that got an abortion to keep the news from her parents that she was sexually active (in london u can get them bitches like teeth exams) its wrong in many ways, i'm against abortion.

another in depth thread in EI....shit..2 in 2 weeks..never saw this comin..

Abortion should be here. People need an out.

adoption is an out, putting a fucking condom on is an out.

word, I think EI has gotten better..

I stopped after that big word "schizophrenic." :thumbup:



Look at the thread starter. :rolleyes:


But on a serious not, orphanage beats the hell out of having an abortion. Just think, it could have been you who that abortion happened to. It's just not right. There's way to prevent it. Birth control, condoms, spermicide, abstinence (fuck that), and other ways. I heard they even have female contraceptives. There's already tons of STD's being transmitted every day. In many ways, having an unintentional baby is like an STD but worse. Even if you went through with the abortion, I'd feel horrible inside. There's better choices rather than abortion, it's another form of murder.

"its another form of murder"

not really, it is murder. read my posts bitch.

Let's say Phate was right. Still...we put up billions of dollars for bullshit that there's no logical reasoning for funding etc....I think we can afford a couple million on our nation's children.

yes i think it shood happen, especially if u get raped, i mean who wood want ur rapists child, but they shood allow it

^Read my post about 2 pages back...*sigh* All these people who make comments and don't know the facts.

1) Which of my statistics involve older orphans. If the 1.5 million people who had an abortion last year gave birth instead they would each have an infant on their hands. Considering noe of them want the babies all of these infants would be given up for adoption immediately. Therefore there would be 1.5 million infants available.
http://womensissues.about.com/cs/ab...ortionstats.htm

Currently 500,000 people are looking to adopt. This number includes people looking for children, and infants. http://www.adoptioninstitute.org/FactOverview.html

How do these numbers not equate.

Besides, there are plenty of infants available. What the people on the waiting list want are white blue eyed babies. If these people are so desperate to adopt then i'm sure africa could accomodate the demand.

2) Would having to carry a pregnancy to term be a deterent. Yes, i agree. But I believe education and prevention is a far better alternative than relying on reluctant parents learning their lesson after a few unwanted pregnancies. Spend the money on programs that reduce unwanted pregnancy by educating and convincing people to use protectiong. We are a rich and smart enough society that we shouldn't have any unwanted pregnancies. That's just my opinion.

3) Yes. Abortion used to be illegal. Family sizes were much larger. Women didn't mind (or weren't allowed) to work therefore stayed home to take care of the kids. And most parents were willing to spend their income on their children before they went out and purchased luxuries.

Can you really say the same of the potential parents who would have to raise their children instead of aborting them. Or are todays reluctant parents interested more on watching tv, buying cars, or doing drugs than spending money on their kids. I wish we could revert certain of societies moral perspective (obviously not forcing women to stay at home) overnight to what they were 50 years ago, but I believe this takes more time.

^ I have no idea what point you are trying to make, but it really doesn't matter. The fact is that abortion is murder, plain and simple. If you support murder, then go ahead, support abortion. If you don't stop trying to say it isn't murder, because you yourself know that is bullshit. Really it doesn't matter how many children they have or if they can't afford it blah blah blah... if they cant afford the shit then don't fucking have sex. Its called responsibility. If you have sex, you had better be responsible for the child, not destroying it. That is the point that has been made by a few people in this thread including lethargic and myself. you phate just continue with the statistics that don't deal with abortions moral wrongness... your avoiding what abortion really is and going into why the population would be too high... which is only a side issue. stop avoiding it, abortion is murder and is therefore wrong.

The point i am trying to make is that there is always more to consider than what is morally right and morally wrong.

Is it wrong to kill? Yes.
Is it wrong to let kids die of aids and starvation in africa? Yes.
Is it wrong to let homeless people die of starvation? Yes.
Is it wrong for people to die because public health care can't pay for enough operations? Yes.
Could all of these morally wrong issues be solved with money? Probably yes.

Is throwing money at these problems always the best solution for the long-term? My opinion is no. Whatever, I just wanted to debate the issue a bit and it seemed no one was putting forth pro perspective, but obviously some people have very strong personal feelings so i'll drop it.

abortion is wrong..outright...not even in cases of rape..but that's a purely religious point...so if the decision is purely ethical, no to all cases except for rape..if religion is included no to all cases, period...

im pro-choice, that should explain everything.

I'm Pro Choice.....
Nuff Said...
Why Are People Writting Novels?

hmmm Peep a poetry peice done by Soft Focus it has some deep views and i think all of u should check it out....

Okay, if you want to get precise...then be precise. First off...the number was 1.37 million. Second, how do you know? Miscarriages happen all the time. I'm not absolutely sure,so don't quote me on it, but I believe it is 1 out of every 50 pregnancies is a miscarriage. This means that 27,400 of those pregnancies would be miscarriages. Thus, 1,342,600 babies would be a more accurate number. That's only if my estimate(1 in 50) is correct. I'd be willing to bet money the miscarriage rate is much higher. Also, let's look at another point. The reason many people get adoptions so early, is so they don't grow and emotional attachment to the baby. At least not one to the point that if they killed the baby it might possibly throw them into extreme depression. Why did clinics want this enforced? Here's why, 60% of mothers who take their pregnancy past 6 months decide to keep the baby instead of aborting, or giving it up for adoption. So...that leaves us with a little over 500,000 babies after the mother's reach that 6 month period....statistically at least. Oh but wait, there's more! We haven't included the statistics of women who were planning on adoption...and decide to keep it after it is born and they've seen it. Would you like to know the statistics on that one? I tell you what, I'll round down! Statistically, a whopping 70% of mothers decide to keep their baby after it is born! Let's see...what do we have for them Bob? That leaves us with approx. 150,000 babies being put up for adoption..not even close to fulfilling half of the list of waiters. See, these abortion sites just give you their numbers of how many babies are aborted. They conveniently forget to add in other statistics to show you the factual outcome of what the rate of adoption would have been like. Ain't that a bitch?



I just showed you.



This discussion is over the US. You're turning it into a world view. If you have to do that just to prove your point...that alone should be a signal that you might need to recheck your standpoint.



A FEW? hah. If people don't want the baby, they won't put up with a FEW unwanted pregnancies. That's like saying...well, after I got shot a few times, I realized I shouldn't go down that street anymore.



No argument there.



That's a generalization. Times have changed, I understand that. However, your point isn't accurate. I'll see where you're going with it though.



Again I agree. You had the same problems 50 years ago. It was just different types of luxuries....same drugs, but different luxuries. That's why they created the Social Services Department. If people would report people like they are supposed to, this wouldn't be a problem. I myself have reported 2 families in my lifetime. Did I feel good about it? No. However, you've got to do whatever you can to ensure a child's safety and potential for leading a fruitful life. There parents were druggy bastards that used to beat them. Well, now they dont' have that opportunity. You'll get that wherever you go...that happens to babies that were wanted..it's not just isolated to unwanted pregnancies.

^ Not really. You just brought morality into it yourself in the post above by lethargic...

but is abortion down to the female to decide? or should she consult the father of the would-be child?

see, what if they had different opinions? the mother has the right to abort her pregnancy, after all, she is carrying the baby, but what if she keeps it quiet and 'disposes' of it without consulting her partner?

OR, she could just not get fucked if she doesn't want a baby.

& By the way, whoever said something about population has no idea. Saying that aborting and killing all these babies is good for the population is like saying that 9/11 was good for America because we lost 4,000 people, yay. I don't have any key facts like Leth, but the fact is abortion is wrong. Their needs to be more research and safer sex possibilites. I doubt anybody's going to reffer to abstinence rather than taking their shots with a condom. And condoms break all the time. America needs more sex technology. The first time I bought condoms I felt embarrassed, and almost didn't go through with it. Many kids don't buy condoms because they're embarrased about doing so. However, it's also on us people in America to prevent it. You can't just point fingers at the government, because that's what everybody wants to do. Like I've been saying, if the effectiveness of condoms and birth control pills went up it would significantly reduce the amount of abortion/adoptions and pregnancies in general.

Just my 8 cents.

Just like...stop posting in this thread. Your comments make you look like an incompetent embicile.

this is in response to emotion..i remember the piece i think your talking about...it rationionilzes abortion...but if we always did what was rational we wouldnt even need abortion...humans are irrational...our emotions(suprised you didn't see this) can cloud our decisions, religious zealousy and ethical ramifications can weigh heavily on such a decision...how's that for soft focus...

I Hate The Idea Of Abortions..Everything About It...If You Don't Want To Have A Baby Keep Ya Legs Shut..You Know?...Anywayz...Abortion Is Only Fit If Someone Is Raped And Becomes Pregnant...Something Of That Case....Other Than That..Why Kill A Child That Had Nothing To Do With You Or Your Misery?....No Reason At All...So Fuck People Who Have Abortions :)

Some of the people who say "Should only be able to abort if you're raped and get pregnant" then say "You're murdering it if you abort it...it's against God.." are contradicting themselves.

As you're talking about human reaction. Social reaction. When giving reason for aborting. Yet if you preach this in the name of 'God' and 'Murder', it's not right to abort it anyway. Even if it was due to pregnancy. As it's just another test which you must pass...well along those lines. But i was talking to a Christian scholar a while back. And came to this. He said the same thing. But also said he understood why people do it (abort if raped). But said you shouldn't bring 'God' in if you argue the two together (aborting if raped and aborting if had consentual sex at an older age). Well, if you're to take the higher ground of yours, that is.

Saying that. I think it should be there. Abortion that is. Though i wouldn't want my kid aborted. I can understand why people do. Appreciate it. And accept it.

I don't know... I understand the reason people do abort... but I think it's wrong anyway. Kinda like killing, no matter what the damn law says. But, I ain't no chick, so I don't really know da situation. I can't really judge.

@Varentao: You may not feel like it. However, please read my posts.