***Bounce for political office***

*the first time ive ever disagreed with bounce*

i agree that legend has no right playing the bullshit racial card, but a lot of what he is saying is very true.

If you say fuck the police, do you not get a beat down/and or jail time. But hey We have the freedom of speech...right?
^^^this is very true. our freedom of speech has gotten smaller and smaller. but it is still one of the biggest freedoms we have.

The government is free to do whatever they want, we are not. They can lie to us, but if you lie to the court, they will take your freedom away.
^^^this is 100% accurate. if you disagree then you can hit me up and i will give you personal accounts of how I have gotten ass fucked by the system. If you don't agree with this then your head is up your ass.

They say it's wrong to kill, but we just destroyed a smaller country for nothing

Hitler, used the same tactics, he said the countries he conquered were a threat. When he conquered too many we had to stop him.
^^^stop watching the news. you are being brainwashed. we are not conquering anything. its called liberation. when a new government is built for them, they will be in charge of it. not us. we do not own Iraq. and an evil dictator like Hitler is exactly wut we are fighting.

They brain wash us, they say yeah your free, you can do anything go anywhere anytime, and that's bullshit. Everysince 9/11, our "freedom" has been severly comprimised. They can do anything they want to you, if they suspect you are a terrorist. Tap your phone, raid your house, pull you over, tear your car up. Just like the mob, the government has a hand in everything.
Alcohol, was illegal peopel went to jail, and died in prohibition. Now it's legal, so those peoples lives were ruined for nothin. Now Weed is illegal, and the gov't has a business plan that if they do legalize it, they will control it. Yet weed is not addictive and doesn't ruin people s lives such as alcohol abuse.
^^^this is all so true. but it's not just after 9/11. the police have way too much power when it comes to investigation. they get away with criminal actions with the support of the court system. again if you dont believe this I will give you personal accounts. and america gets at its most hypocritical point when it comes to drugs.

The job market is kaput, but the rich are getting richer, while the poor get shitted on. Funny how SEC of defense Rumfields, defunct construction company, go the first Billion dollar contract for construction in Iraq.
^^^this is again a very true and valid point. i have worked personally with people struggling because of how we treat our poverty stricken people like shit. we give them little chance to ever succeed. there is so much more we could do for them but don't. our system doesnt help the truly poor. our system helps the lazy assholes that learn how to milk the system for every dime they can get. we act like we care about other country's poverty more than we care about our own. I am a person that devotes a lot of time to service and before you witness this first hand you cannot comment.

Canada is a free'er country than us, I mean look at their gov't. They have free health care! I mean we're the richest country and our health care just doubled. If my girl get's in an accident today (God Forbid), her hospital bills will plung her into a life long debt, she can never repay. Because her insurance jumped from 186 a month to 525! Thats about half her monthly gross. and it's INSURANCE meaning that dough is for nothing if she doesn't go to the doctor. THANKS BUSH!
^^^our health care is shit but not because of bush. people need to stop blaming bush for everything. do you honestly think Gore couldve done a better job??

bounce it is everyones responsibility to ensure that we provide health care. this area should not be a huge business like everything else in our country. I cannot afford healthcare and have no coverage right now. I am a student with no money. If I get sick I will probably die. here's why. I am a dependent under my parents. They have healthcare but I'm not covered because im over 18. I have thousands of dollars in legal bills from getting shafted by the court system. I have no car because i was shafted by the court system. My savings was taken from getting shafted by the court system. My small business has crumbled from getting shafted by the court system. I can't get a decent job because I am being charged with a felony crime and it appears that I have a felony on my record. I also can't get a loan for this reason. So now I am forced to work for minimum wage at a shit job to pay for my legal expenses and other bills. as soon as i get my paycheck 100% goes toward bills. I can't afford to go to school full time so I'm not qualified to recieve medical insurance under my parents. And because i am a dependant under my parents who are upper middle class I do not qualify for any government programs to help me. so wut are my options? leave home and live on the streets so if i one day by some crazy miracle have a residence i will be allowed to recieve health benefits? or i can say screw paying legal bills and i will certainly got to prison for many years for something I absolutely did NOT do. DO I deserve this? NO! did i put myself in this situation? NO!!!!!!!!! am i doing my best to succeed?? YES!! why should I be responsible that if I get sick I wont be able to afford health care because the government has formed a huge business out of it instead of providing help for its citizens. health care isnt supposed to be a business!!! For u to insinuate that this is my problem and dont deserve health care is WRONG!!!! put yourself in my shoes. and remember that there are tons of people in this country in way worse situations.

also, for u to tell someone to go to another country is completely wrong. he is practicing his freedom of speech in a constructive way. this country needs all the criticism it can get because even though we are the best this world has to offer it is still not acceptable.

^^ okay let's get anal[ytical] (lol) wit this^^^

I agree with alot of stuff your saying, but I've come to the realization that...Societies archaic structure does not work. I really think it's a remix of communism.

Look at it like this education means next to nothing, unless you’re studying Law, or Medicine, something that really requires you to know what your doing.

I don't know if you noticed but, a big chunk of the work force is missing. What happened to their Education, that shit doesn't matter? I remember a guy called into a radio show, and said "last year, I was making $100,000 @ worldcom, now I'm driving a truck for $9.25hr, and I gotta baby on the way". Now where exactly does his degree fit in? To deliver his child, the hospital will charge $5,000. Where is he gonna get that money, if he doesn’t have insurance?
Corporations, those are the only people who are free to do what they want. It’s the large institutions and their money who shape this country! Look at ENRON, they took employees money, and invested it, and lost peoples whole retirement money. And their was question whether or not they should go to jail or not. I would got to jail if I stole a car worth $500, they stole over $500 mil and their was a question? You know why, cause they financially back politicians who have the same views, so if prosecuted, they might not have a check for them come time for the Champaign
Let’s take one of the largest commercial institutions COLLEGE!
It starts out when your parents tell you to go to school and get a good career, and raise family and be wealthy, right? But in reality, the universities and colleges make a lot of money, along with other corporations. Next time you go to a campus, look at all the commercialized shit. They got bullshit classes that are “requirements”, for you to pass. They’re making money whether you pass or fail! They convince you, that you’ll be nothing if you don’t graduate, so that fear is what drives you. I went to college to be a architect, until my professors said we would come out making $9hr, to start and only people who are partners make big money, and you have to be chosen and OLD for that to happen. So after that I kinda lost my drive. My guy finished with a degree in business, back in 2001, it took him a year to find a job, and yes they started him @ $9hr at a bank. He spent all that time, and he just now is getting his first apt, and I’m on my 3rd in 6 years

Most millionaires today, don’t have the schooling deemed necessary for “success”, because they know its bullshit and a big waste of time and money. I know a guy who sold a bullshit Hip-hop newsletter e-mail service to a major company for $500K, and a position w/the company. What about the “DOT COM’ERS”?
So if the “distribution of wealth in this country is directly proportional to [the] Educated in this country”. Poor people will never have a chance at wealth, because they can’t afford to send people to college. Thus supporting my statement, “the rich get richer and the poor get poorer”. That’s how I fail to see your freedoms, because society is based on shit that doesn’t apply to everybody. You might say “poor people get up and get a job and you can be successful”, it’s not true. A lot of people work 2 jobs, with no insurance, and barely making ends meet. While somewhere some rich fuck who is a “consultant”, lights up a $100 bill to be funny, when actually, that’s a weeks pay to a lot of people.

is that directed at me?? because i agreed with you..

bounce it is everyones responsibility to ensure that we provide health care.

^^^

This is what I mean, not soley the government, we need more private sector involvement. In health care, and the education system as well as the socail issue faced by our nation. The answer is not bigger government.

Now about disagreeing with me, I am not sure where you disagree... I was just making a harsh analogy to his comments, not a diss, that is why I added the line in parenthasis. He know's I am not dissing him, just a harsh realization that compared to areas of the world I have witnessed first hand, he would embrace our problem stricken nation much more readily. When have I ever said this is a perfect nation free from troubles, never, I have only stated that in comparision there is no other nation that can come close to the overall liberties freedoms and way of life. You must remember I have been derailed by the system as weel, I have a past and still have been able to excel in life in area I should never of had the chance. Come on, where else is someone with my background going to have the opprotunites that I have. Through education and hard work, step out of the ghetto after living such a povershed life. I had the system work against me plenty of times in my life, if you knew my back ground you would understand my stance on this subject. I think people just want eveything handed to them, and for someoen who fought and clawed for just about everything in life, I am bitter towards that attitiude. This mexicano has seen enough of the whining and bitching on all side, Im just saying, get your fucken head out of your ass and do something to change your sataus. (This was not directed at you or anyone else, just in general) Like the education system, everyone complains, well fine just home school your child like I did. More parents should take an active role in their childrens education, not just rely on the system. I thought my duahgter myself, and she is so far ahead in her studies it's ridicules. I am tired of people living in this nation blaming everyone and everything but do nothing to promote thier own status. That is why my words were posted in that fashion.

IM AM JUST TIRED OF ANALYZING THE ISSUE'S IN A FORUM THAT MOST JUST FLOAT SHIT ON. sO i WENT OUT IN ANOTHER DIRECTION. MAYBE EVEN GET SOMEONE TO INTERJECT SUCH AS YOU HAVE.

man, i was in the war for 4 months. being an american means the world to me, almost as much as family. people cant feel me cuz the wasnt out there in the desert, fighting for the country, so they take a lot of shit for granit. in some contries, the petty crimes that are misermeners here will get you killed or ya hand chopped of. look at another m,ans wife in saudi arabia, get ya dick cut off. people need to quit sleping on america, it is a beatiful place. the only country where the people actually rule. we vote who goes in office and makes laws and runs the country. if you didnt or dont vote, then dont complain, its as simple as that. if you dont use your freedoms then quit hatting. thats why people cant enjoy america, its because they dont use all the oppertunites she offers.

^^SEE LOOK AT THE POST'S NOW, IT WORKED...

Opey we need to swap stories we might get aq better understanding of eachother and our views on the issue's. I am glad you disagree with me on something, I never intend to be correct or right, not on a subject as braod as this. I just live my life to a certain set of ethics and beliefs, ya know what I mean. I feel too many people take what we have in this nation for granted, and you know this to be true.. So where's the real disagreance?

how is a single mother with 3 kids and 2 jobs going to teach her children? some people need to depend on the government and this is the time where it is not there for us. and when i say "the government" i mean private agencies as well because these institutions get government funding. and if they dont then they atleast get tax breaks. no one said anything about bigger government. im talkin about the institutions that we already have need to stop bein so fuckin greedy and help the citizens like they are supposed to. Because if this government ran like it was supposed to it would be near perfect. but greed is causing it to fall apart. this entire country is infected with greed and something must be done. at this rate it will only get worse until the country crumbles.

i think we agree but did poorly in expressing what we were thinking.

*Just read Opey shit*
I'm glad you shared that shit with us, cause some people DO have their head up their ass and they couldn't have possibly imagined your situation.
I was not playing the bullshit race card, because poverty is not racist. There are whitew folks in the applechia mountains that don't even have running water let alone bathrooms in their house....while we're using computers and shit.

The point is, the rich are free, the poor are trapped.

The correctional institutions are a fucking joke. They had an idea that you would be "Corrected", after your convicted. what a fucking joke!!!
Just the court process costs hundrds maybe thousands of dollars, and if you don't have it ...your "shafted".
One of my guys got pulled over and they illegally searched his car and found an unregistered pistol. He went to jail, we had to get a thou to get him out, the prosecuter doesn't care about his case so he'll try to get him to plead guilty, so he'll just get fined, and it can go quickly. Even though, my homey had a guncard, and was licensed to have it. The problem was he just bought it from a friend who (older guy) had it since vietnam. OR he can hire ($$) a lawyer, and they'll throw the case out without even going to trial. What kind of justice is that?
When they was settin the bail, the cops arrested this arabian guy for having $7000 dollars worth of drug paraphanailia in the trunk his car. He was the owner of his own smoke shop. But he has to pay a bunch of dough now cause the cops was dicks.

When you get that blemish on your record, you might as well go to another country. Cause you'll have a hard time just getting a minimum wage job. And who want's to clean shit, or do demeaning things, for a check that you can't even pay your whole rent with. and you wonder why people "MILK" the system. maybe schooling should be free instead of health

Y'all need to watch Micheal Moore's "Bowling for Columbine", that shit should open your eyes a little...

...btw, you weakened your argument with this



so basicly, education means nothing unless u want to be smart? lol

i think you are missing the point of why we need education. you have the ability to choose wutever career you want. If you choose to go into architecture then u should understand that you are going into the field of construction which needs mostly skilled and unskilled labor. there is no room for huge money making opportunities unless you are at the top. there is not a huge need for educated people in this area. If you want to make money then you should think about what industry is in the most need of employment. right now we are in need of pharmicists. they are making between $75 and $100 thousand str8 out of college in Maryland. based on Marylands economy that is extremely good.

education does not make u money. if you are only looking to make money then you need a good business sense. You mentioned dot commers. most dot commers make next to nothing because they have no education and no business sense. I am a dot commer and until recently I did exceptionally well. but i am in college getting the proper education to understand the business that im in. you only get out of college what u put into it.

but i do agree that some classes we are forced to take are spawns of the government agenda ie. health, womens rights. but mst classes are to give you a well-rounded knowledge of the world. i believe that a person should be equally educated in language, social science, mathematics, and biological and chemical science. this is with the exception of your area of expertise. a well-rounded education is important for more reasons than making money. Your overall survival in life depends on how smart you are. you mention that a lot of successful people are uneducated in certain areas. this is because some knowledge and concepts come natural to certain people. take bill gates for instance. His knowledge of computers and programming came natural to him. his knowledge was driven by his interest and therefore had no need for education. He also has a keen business sense which other people lack and need education for. If you are in a class getting taught something that you already understand by someone on a lower intellectual level than you then yes, you dont need college. but if you are going into a field which you dont have a full grasp on then you need education. college is not some ploy to brain wash you and teach you to submit to society. that's what highschool is for.

We were on the same ground all along! The private sector is where we need to look, we need to depend more on people, not government. Thats the core belief in my stance on this issue.

Responsiblity for our actions and inactions is all I am talking about. I had a daughter young, but did not rely on anyone but myself. I supported her, I raised her, and I educated her. Her mother and I managed to do, sure it was the hardest challenge I ever came across but it made me who I am today. Between the two of us, we completed our degrees and both work in our careers of choice. Niether one of our parents have any education outside of elementary, or do they have any money. We did it ourself, and enjoy every moment we get to reflect on it. Durring the time we were going nucking futs, but it was a lesson much needed. I think responsiblity is a huge issue and it's something we need to push. I feel for the single mother working two jobs, cuz I have been in her position, except I stood by the mother of my child. If your old enough to have intercourse then you better be prepared for the resposiblites of having a child. I do see a need for assistance in many cases, but we as people of this nation should promote those programs. Within our own communites and social networks. We need to remove our dependencies on government before we lose track of our own identities as a people. It's hard but not impossible!!!

Respect

damn... i saw that in theaters then i immedately went home and downloaded it. now i own it on dvd. that is an excellent documentary.

Yeah I will admit it's good, but he is the biggest lefty I know. You know what I am talking about opey..

...btw, you weakened your argument with this


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by MR. LEGEND
[BLook at it like this education means next to nothing, unless you’re studying Law, or Medicine, something that really requires you to know what your doing.
[/B]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



so basicly, education means nothing unless u want to be smart? lol

What I meant is that, you cannot go fill out an app, for a doctors position. And you just can't rep in court without actually knowing the law. You can't just mix drugs without knowing what to do.

But if some one trains you in the duties of a bank manager, you do not need a degree for that. You do not need a degree to be a substance abuse counselor.

Trades ie truck driving, chef, CNA, carpentry, electricians, plumbing, all these career fields have programs where they teach you exactly what you need to know to do a good job. There are no extra bs classes like womens rights, cause it has nothing to do with the trade.

Hey Like I stated in the first Post, I agreed with everything except the education to Wealth equation.

The reason is...I work for a welfare-to-work agency, and now we have people coming in with MASTERS DEGREES asking for help...

And thanks to Bush, he cut our budget in half, and WE laid people off. I see everything 1st hand right here.

So not only did the economy go into the trash, he cut agency funds for the only places people could get help.

But...if you doin alright, you wouldn't know anything about it.

Oh to my man who was in the WAR, I'm glad you're back. And I DO appreciate that shit.

We didn't pick this president, he cheated, and we've been paying for it every since.

Bush said we was going to disarm Iraq, they gave a day long presentation with spy photos of weapon sites. 7 months later, no WMD, so now we're uh liberating them? But Sadaam is gone, and the "puppet gov't" they set up WILL be PRO american, and it will fall. Bill CLinton said it best, we can't fight the whole world, we're spreading ourselves too thin, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. We got problems here, like all of thee above.

The terrorist won, when they crashed those planes, the trade centers fell along with some of our freedoms. And fear will continue to trap us for well past our times...

^ don't start me up on this subject agian..... How little people search for the real information. There are more sources of public news than just on the local tv station. Please Iraq has granted us more footing on the international threat level than most people know and or willing to admit...

Hey yeah, but the terrorist came from saudi arabia,

Bin ladin & the taliban are from Afghanistan

Why wouldn't Iraq have beef, we kicked their ass before?

Castro got beef too, Hey Korea and China got beef.

Korea told us "we will bomb that ass if you fuck wit us", how come we didn't fuck with them?

O I L

Do you really not see it, is it just that difficult to see? Come on prior to Iraq the DPRK was threating preemptive strikes agaist us. Meaning nukes, not just our people in the south, but the homeland. Where are those statements know, they disolved the minute we over stepped the UN and launched an offensive on Iraq. I am in the loop, I am briefed everyday, and I do work in the defense arena. That much is known about me. We used Iraq to stand down those nations hotile to us, durring a time of weakness in our militarys history. Every nation hostile to the US, knows we are weaker than in the day's of Regan. How would you fight someone much bigger than you, when he's at his weakest. Once Iraq's economy comes back into play, we then have a US friendly oil producer. We no longer have a dependency to the Sultans in Saudi for thier resources. Now we can move forward in this war on terrorism, and internation politics. So many are dependant on Saudi, yet we can not just deny that dependency. Yet our actions are sending shock waves through them as I type. We stand down the DPRK, and Saudi influence, by freeing a people. Come on that is just genius at its best. Our military planners and leaders are doing exactly that leading. It's not in the best interest of the country to have everyone in the know at the same time. I do have an advantage to access the information, since it is what I do. But many americans have researched in the public doamin and have access to the same information. You just have to look. It's like a game of chess, strategic moves, to ensure an outcome best suited for your side.

^^ I WAS BEING VERY BLAN ON PURPOSE... yOU COULD READ BETWEEN THE LINES..

Ok, that's cool and all, but let's get back to the thread topic.

THEY LIED, THEY LIED BIG, ACCORDING TO YOU!

The US tries to make it sound as if "we the people" have some sort of control of what goes on, who are leader is. And in the past couple of years, it's become clearly evident, we don't have any control over what the gov't does. In fact through your info, it's as if the American people are dumb sheep, and we need to be lied to cause we wouldn't understand.

The war on terrorism? Just a psuedo phasode for the acquirement of a friendly oil counrty!

You can't have a war on terrorism, let them feed you that bullshit!

Let's take this debate for example, I can easily call you a terrorist for not agreeing with what I believe in. AND YOU CAN BELIEVE THE SAME!

Just cause our cultures are different, and I don't understand yours and arrogantly look down on you as if you were barbaric. Doesn't give you the right to attack somebody.

All over the media, they feed you bullshit. if you get pregnant in the middle east, without being married, you get stoned
If you steal, you get your hand chopped off
If you don't pray when the bell rings you get your head bust

Yeah we don't get down like that, but just cause we don't doesn't me they shouldn't.

We can't impose our way of life on other cultures. Their laws follow the The holy coran, closely. Thats What their GOD said, so who is anyone to go against what God said...THE DEVIL

If our laws went by the bible, we would be doin "eye for an eye" type punishments. But we don't cause that's what we chose, and thats what they chose.

So we now know that the gov't WILL lie to us, and do wtf they want. What else is new?
They said we're going in to get the WMD. Sadaam said "we ain't got none this is a crime!"
Htf can we go liberate and influence another country, when we ain't got it right right here?

hey you got admit, no one was looting shooting and raping when Sadaam was in charge. When he was gone all hell broke loose and is currently breaking loose.

We're loosing our boys everyday, and they don't even know what they are still doing over there:(

And Bush Blames the cia for misinformation, and then has the nerve to ask the UN for help

GOD help us!!!!

Would you rather try rebuiling a country after a non conventional war, or take actions that would deter that posibility? Sadaam screwed himself, he had every opprotunity to come clean, he used the threat against us, and in the end it back fired on him. We do have every reason to suspect his involvemnt in those programs. I never stated that the nukes, and other reasons were not important or even a factor. I was just showing you the depth and scope of the offensive. Pictures have surfaced of war planes that should not have been in the Iraqi arsenal, also listed in the UN resoulution. I do not see how you can call the war illegal, or unjust, when as a mean to halt the offensive of the first gulf war, these resolutions were drafted. They violated these resolutions time and time again, which puts us in a position to wage war if we so chose. Clinton could have but decided not to, instead he goes into action in another arena. I really don't think most americans are in the posistion to run a country or make thses decisions. We look to our leaders for that, we do have a say, but is it our right in this country to add War on the ballot? I like that fact that we can disagree, that's why we fight to keep our freedoms, because in the cold era of the USSR, your comments would get you and your entire family relocated to prison in the snow. Our system is far from pefect, we need to fix many aspects of our own country, but first need to ensure a future for the country. That sometimes comes with a huge price tag, often War...

Either way your arguement is weakened by the fact that congress had already (privately) voted to go to war, prior to the statements the President made in that now famous address. Democrates and Republicans both agreed on the war in congress, now that the election is upon us, they need to find some ground to assualt the President and or the current adminsitration, hence the attack of the Presidents address (claiming WMD's as a concern)...

he got you there with facts and backed it up, sthu mr legend, like opey said, you had a good argument untill you brought up the racial shit, id stop while you ahead, other wise good argument

I haven't said anything racial!!!!!
I said I didn't wanna get racial with this in the thread. I was very careful notto use specific races as examples, and I also said poverty knows no color. Anyway If I lied to the cops to prevent myself from dying or to prevent something from happening, that's perjury, and they'll get me.

Don't you think if the American public was informed of what the hell is really going on we would have made a decision. But nooooo, the gov't tricked the UN, the rest of the world and US. And that's why we don't trust them.


Hey the President has been know to abuse alcohol, and drugs in his past! If I abuse those things I'll never get a real Job. They say You can go anywhere in the country you want, but the fact of the matter is you have to have money to do anything. To get that good education, someone has to pay for you to go to college. To even drive now a days you have to have insurance (which is required by law). Yes I HAVE to pay $230 a month, just IN CASE I get in an accident. And if I get caught without it it's a minimum of $500 fine. See If there is a system offered by the gov't, it's defunct, causerich people don't fuck with "systems" they live a privatized life.
To be continued tomorrow...

^the fact that we went to war and found nothing is really a moot point......can't exactly take it back now can we? I think the main argument now should be how the operation was botched. We went looking for WMD and didn't find any, we are also searching for any terrorist cells in the area which may or may not have links to Al-Qaieda, oh yeah and we were supposed to murk Saddam. Have we eliminated some terrorists? A few. Did we kill Saddam? No, but we got his sons. Now Bush has to turn around and tuck his tail between his legs and ask the UN for support because we need money and aid. Yes we are the only country in an unstable region right now, our troops deserve the help. However, why should the UN help us, we were the ones who opted to go to war with or without their support. I don't blame Bush for everything that is bad in this country, and in regards to this war I think he had the American peoples best interest at heart, but i do think he jumped the gun. No the common citizen should not have War on the Ballot, but our leaders must take heed and understand that if they are going to take drastic action then we are going to want results. Bounce you are in the loop and better informed then most, but the average person dosen't like to come home to see troops dying in a country AFTER the conflict has been deemed resolved. That breeds a feeling of distrust and resentment.

As far as healthcare and such goes (i know you tried to get away from that bounce, sorry) the problem looks this way to me: The government is not directly responsible for the health care crisis right now. In my opinion the only thing that they have failed to do is come up with reasonable controls for the private sectors, namely insurance companies who underwrite malpractice insurance. Right now with a staggering amount of physicians being sued for malpractice, malpratice insurance rates have soared causing doctors to charge more. Companies who offer health care to their employees have opted to pass these increases on to workers (typical). This happens ever so often until major corporations such as GE strike and then the board of directors sometimes cut back upper managements salaries. The problem isn't so much that government isn't trying to provide dependable affordable health care, the problem is that our current system of health care is flawed. Caps for malpractice awarded has been proposed to eliminate this problem and has been adopted in some states, New York for example, now the issue becomes what dollar amount can we place on a human life?
These are tough questions that I know I can't answer, that's why I vote, like bounce said we have leaders to lead us, let them, don't complain unless you make your voice heard by taking advantage of the democratic process. Unlike bounce I am a leftist, I prefer a large government because face it the states are to "immature" to handle problems on their own, and bigger government dosen't neccesarily mean less privacy, at least not pertaining to your individual lives, it means that states won't be left to handle every situation on their own, and those who have wealth won't be able to sneak around and do things they don't want the rest of us to see!

I know bounce will probably pick this apart and tear my every argument to shreds but so be it I feel up to a good debate right now!

legend, the reason we so called tricked them and why the goverment doesnt inform us is all in the writing of machaivelli, he states a leader must not inform the people of the full situation becuse the people would not know how to react, and in the end it will all benifit us, give the president some credit, even if you dont agree with him, he is our leader, respect him and his decions or get the FUCK OUT

prophit, you ever think that just maybe, becuse we gave them all the time in the world, that they were smart and got all of there shit outta there, befor we declared anything on them,they were broadcasting new scuds and shit on live television throughout the world, even tho he was a dumbass to have shit with us, hes not that much of a dumbass, infact if you look at it (assumption not fact) looks like he started this, got all of his stuff out now the US is empty handed, killed inocents (very very very few might i add) and lost 250+ of our own, kinda makes us look bad in the arab world huh???

Whatever, Bush is a the worse president so far in my lifetime. I mean we're supposed to getting better. The Economy was the best it ever was b 4 him. Everybody was working, they raised minimum wage twice, technology was advancing at a blazing speed (the internet was commercialized and made more main stream). And the only thing they could put on Clinton was when he got his dick sucked. Yet they always find a way to blame todays problems on yesterdays administration.

If you hired me to do a service for you, and I fuck up, I can't blame it on the last guy!!!!!I called being responsible...

You see middle to upper class America is kept blind, because they got money, and money MOVES shit. The lower class is shitted on and they don't care if we know, because we don't have any money to MOVE anything.

Then Bush get's in office, (by cheating first of all), and mysteriously 100's of thousand people get laid off. Planes crash into the trade center. Corporate crimes run rampant, and no one is prosecuting them. Then we not only go to war, but we don't find the people responsible for it or the Weapons which were the main reason we went in.

So now we look like Jack asses to the world especially the people who opposed the war.

Free? who do you trust? Bush himself said that he was misinformed by the CIA. So the info that your spittin NOW can be more bullshit.

WASHINGTON, Sept. 17 — President Bush said Wednesday that there was no evidence that former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was involved in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, disputing an impression that critics say the administration tried to foster to justify the war against Iraq. MSN.com today NEWS

^ keep reading those media outlets only, and be force feed someone's agenda. I Just ask that you look at both sides of the media. Then make educated opinions, those made only based on the biased media such as MSN and other liberal icons, are force feed.

This is the head line of the day, everynews source reported on this. So it's not like their lying

THATS WHAT YA BOY SAID!!!

Read below for some enlightenment...
(snippet just for your info)


Angry Democrats: Florida and Beyond
Why is the left so mad?
BY ROBERT L. BARTLEY
Monday, September 15, 2003 12:01 a.m. EDT

Mr. Bartley is editor emeritus of The Wall Street Journal. His column appears Mondays in the Journal and on OpinionJournal.com.


What happened in Florida was that George Bush won every official recount, a result confirmed by the press-sponsored unofficial recounts. Also, Mr. Bush didn't start the lawsuits; Al Gore fired the first writ.
In the same election, John Ashcroft declined to go to court after he lost his Senate seat because votes for the dead man listed on the ballot were counted for his widow instead. Even Richard Nixon persuaded reporter Earl Mazo to abandon the story that John F. Kennedy's forces stole the 1960 election in Illinois and Texas.
By contrast Mr. Gore went to court, asking for additional recounts in specified Democratic counties where 2-1 votes of election boards could find new Gore votes in "dimpled chads." He ordered up a smear campaign against Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris, and pursued his litigation until even the activist Florida Supreme Court split 4-3, with a blistering dissent from its chief judge.
The Supreme Court stepped in to stop the chaos, ruling by a 7-2 majority that what the Florida court had chartered was unconstitutional. Two of the seven had their own ideas about the proper rules, but the five-member majority closed recounts summarily and let Ms. Harris certify a 537-vote victory for George Bush.
The media recounts found that Mr. Bush won by 493 votes. Mr. Bush also won, this tally determined, under an honest recount of votes in the counties the Gore lawsuits had selected. It did construct a Gore victory scenario if you counted spoiled ballots. But if you entertain "what if" scenarios, you have to remember that many Republican voters were dissuaded from voting when the television networks called the election for Gore before the polls had closed in the western panhandle counties. While the Florida election was excruciatingly close, it is simply not true that the Supreme Court let Mr. Bush steal it.

Angry Democrats may have convinced themselves otherwise, but again, why? The Democratic anger must have deeper roots, fit for speculation in a future column. When Democrats assert that the Republicans will do anything to win, their complaint is relevant only in terms of what psychologists call "projection," finding your own faults in others.

I rest my case

Now your jumping from the abscence of WMD's to 9/11 involvement from Iraq. You are not proving anything here other than your ability to dick ride the media. Bush never pointed the finger at Iraq for 9/11, it's was "The base" or Osama's little network. So what ground does this gain you, in your pursiut to bash Bush? It was the public misconception fueled by the media bias from the left that has tied the two. Please doyou not acknowledge a bias in your media? If not you are out numbered 3 to 1 in every gallop poll taken on this issue. So where does that place you, way way behind, not only in times but in awareness. Please bring something solid into this debate, and then maybe you might get me to agree with you on the issue.


So I found a poll result posted earlier this week by Gallup (www.gallup.com), but now only accessible to Gallup subscribers. The firm’s September 8-10 survey of 1,025 adults discovered that when asked what they “think the news media is?”, 45 percent replied “too liberal,” compared to a piddling 14 percent who said they see the media as “too conservative.” And 39 percent expressed the view that the news media are “just about right.”
posted by media watch dogs

yes every news source source reported it but not in the same context. every source takes one sentence that can be compromised and bends it to their will. this is done in the political arena as well as entertainment. Here's an example...

I'm an up n coming white rapper. In an interview I am asked how I feel about racial slang being used in music. a sentence from my response reads "I would never call a black man a nigger and I think it's wrong for anyone to do so."

Now a periodical that supports a rival entertainer has a headline that says "OPEY SAYS NIGGER!!"

yes this is true but what context was it in? What was the meaning behind what I said? Now one headline won't do much but give a couple years of effort to slandering my name and I have half the country believing that I'm a terrible person.

this is what happens with the president. He gives hundreds of speaches. If you only twist one sentence from every speach you can do a lot of damage. you need to realize that you are nothing but a pawn right now in the liberal agenda. You really need to do more research because all your posts lack facts. Your responses are opinions only. You can't even tell me how exactly you blame bad economy and the WTC on Bush. you speak only on emotion. you have not brought one rational argument about Bush. Your words are almost quoted from the liberal media.

^^^
Damn opey is intelligent when he doesnt freepost...

Good job...

I agree...

Please excuse typos I have not the time to check my post for them..

^Very logical and well thought out post, this is how you get your point across for serious disscusion. I appluad your ability to combine concious thought with just a hint of personel emotion. You make clear pooints, I respect that greatly.
(even for a lefty j/k)

IN response to the WMD portion of your post. I think I have made it clear that the UN resolution left open the opt for War based on many circumstances one of which the WMD's. The resolution it's self states any hesitation on the part of Iraq to comply, is grounds enough for an offensive. We as a nation, had been hit in our homeland, not by Iraq but by terrorist. We have prior knowledge of Iraq's WMD programs, plus the huge amount of non compliance on thier part to reopen her country for inspection. This equates to speculation, which equates to reasonable cause, which is just idiotic on the part of Saddam. He knew were we hit, and he knew we would be looking to protect ourself from even the most remote possibility of such an attack using non conventionla means. He should have imediatly opened his country up for inspection without hesitation. I know first had we have unearthed several violations of international sanctions and non compliance with the UN resolution drafted after the first gulf war. No jumping of the gun, Clinton was advised in the same manner as Bush, except Clinton decided to leave the problem to the next administration. Enough said, no jumping of the gun, it's more like why so late in the game. Either way that point was crushed...

Now about the results, no one said the conflict was resolved ever, the statment was that 'major conflict was over'. Once again a civilians misconception fueled by the radicle left and the media.
So another point decimated. I too hate to see our people being killed, I happen to work side by side with them in evey hostile arena they enter. I give them sight when they can't see and I give them targets they otherwise could not touch. One thing I know is that they are doing this for you and I. I respect their sacrifice and charecter. Removing a regime has never been as easy operation, but to do it as tactically as we have is unheard of. It's a major victory in the hearts and minds of those sworn to protect our freedom. Our death toll is a huge price to pay, one we are paying for daily, but in comparison to other campains we are doing what no ohter nation before us has been able to do without gross loss of life.
Once again with the circumstances and the fact that we are doing a job, that europe should be doing, again I think your point has been weakened. ( no beef, I really enjoy your debate)

We have captured or killed many of those infamous faces on the deck of cards, plus shut down the future Saddams. Sure Sadaam may have evaded us for now, as well as Osama, but that does not take away from the fact that we have him themon the run. While the las administration let them get away with murder. I can refer you to some good reading on the subject of Mr. Clinton allowing several most wanted to escape time and time again. I assure you this administration will not allow that to happen.

The distrust and resentment you mention is once again fueled by misconception and lack of awareness from the general population. It's not that the information is not out there in the public domain. It's more to do with how lazy we have become in this country, we rather be force feed our information than go to the trouble of searching it out ourself. Of course we would never suspect our papers and tv news to be less than accurate now would we?

The UN has proved itself useless and spinless in the face of international threats. It has become a utopia of liberal ideologies and world conformity. I do not stand for that, the majority of Americans who understand just how dangerous that is to our everyday life here in America, do not stand for that. Hence the overwhelming support for the War. Like I have mentioned Congress voted to wage war prior to any of the staements made by the President in that address. Now there is an election comming up, and guess what the left has changed face, a 180 degree turn around prior to the days leading up to the war.
Points nullified...

On another note, I can agree with you on the health care issue as you brought them up. Reform of current policy is great, but nationalized health care is not the answer here in America. I think you understand my reasoning behind that, since you parrelled my thoughts to a point. Lets skip that for now because I am currently writting an essay on this topic to be posted on the health care debate forum of a nationally syndicated talk show. Conflict of interest, since I am trying to push an agenda there.

I can also understand your preference to larger government in the sense of guiding a wayward state. I just do not believe governemnt should be in every aspect of our life. Social issues are not the sole function of governemnt, private sector and people need to make contributions in this area. I am against higher taxes, unlike you as a leftist. I would like to keep the money in the private sector, with big governemnt comes higher taxes and more government dollars to squander. Can you tell me why you call yourself a leftist? It is the agenda to the left, that is propelling our country into a socialist republic. Big government that has to regulate everyday life, from food to work, to health care, not only harms induviualism, but resemble's that of communisim. If you have ever opended a history book, you should know where that path leads, to total destruction of state. Look at how many socialist societies have crumbled to date. I care about the future of this country enough to look at the domino affect liberal socialism will have on my Daughters United Sates of America. I say my daughters because most of these issues will not be appearent to the general population until the near future. One which I amy or may not see. If I only cared about myself I would not be so passionate about this issue, or even allow myself to be blinded. I do care, about our children and thier right to grow up in a free nation, not one flung into socialisim. I do not expect everyone to understand my position or even care, but it one you should concern yourself with. When you look into the eye's of an innocent child and feel what I feel for my daughter you will understand. The left is on a crusade to destroy family values, which will destroy our country and it's founding principles.

Until next time, respectfully submitted by Bounce...

QUOTE]Originally posted by MR. LEGEND
Whatever, Bush is a the worse president so far in my lifetime. I mean we're supposed to getting better. The Economy was the best it ever was b 4 him. Everybody was working, they raised minimum wage twice, technology was advancing at a blazing speed (the internet was commercialized and made more main stream). And the only thing they could put on Clinton was when he got his dick sucked. Yet they always find a way to blame todays problems on yesterdays administration.

If you hired me to do a service for you, and I fuck up, I can't blame it on the last guy!!!!!I called being responsible...

You see middle to upper class America is kept blind, because they got money, and money MOVES shit. The lower class is shitted on and they don't care if we know, because we don't have any money to MOVE anything.

Then Bush get's in office, (by cheating first of all), and mysteriously 100's of thousand people get laid off. Planes crash into the trade center. Corporate crimes run rampant, and no one is prosecuting them. Then we not only go to war, but we don't find the people responsible for it or the Weapons which were the main reason we went in.

So now we look like Jack asses to the world especially the people who opposed the war.

Free? who do you trust? Bush himself said that he was misinformed by the CIA. So the info that your spittin NOW can be more bullshit.

WASHINGTON, Sept. 17 — President Bush said Wednesday that there was no evidence that former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was involved in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, disputing an impression that critics say the administration tried to foster to justify the war against Iraq. MSN.com today NEWS [/QUOTE]


Please excuse typos I have not the time to check my post for them..






so you blame Bush for 9/11, you blame bush for the cheating of rich ass CEOs who so desperetly sheated out thouseand of people, you blame bush for the lack of jobs, you blame bush for the economy drop, wo what a dumbass. Sure all this happened when bush came to office, but everyone loved him when 9/11 came around, you think gore would have done better, he said him self he would have stayed in camp david, safe. And you blame Bush for the actions of CEOs who only care about money, becuse of them ripping off the american people (im bettin 99% of all CEOs ripp off the employees so they get more $$, cuz thats al that matters) cuasing a bind, sure i see your point, but like bounce said look at both sides before you make decisions based on the media. Givin the emaple by opey, what the press says is usually BS, alll that matters to them is rateings, ratings bring money, and thats all they care about. For Iraq, sure you dissagree, i respect that, so does almost 48% of the population, but befor you go and make remarks, remember, you dont know 5% of whats really goin on, and that 5% is from the press...

^^You see we tried to keep this on an mature intellectual level. Everybody was respecting everybodies view. Every thing was cool, until ^THIS DICK BAG^, had to call me a dumbass. Welp..ahhhhhhhhh, I'm droppin out of the convo, cause this is turning into a "Tupac is alive"-ish debate. Cause in reality if you just look at how things are right now, things are bad. And thats period point blank. Who is responsible for the state of the union? President George W. Bush

You can type a thousand words, and you will still have some sort of EXCUSE for him.

*It was the last administrations fault
*They had to lie to the American public

Bounce be cool man, unlike America itself I respect your views and I will not condemn you for your beliefs. I do not see you as a threat, so I see no need to belittle you, nor destroy you....

Unlike The United States of America

Belittle me or destroy me? Now that is comedy, please I have no ill intent towards you, I just feel for your lack of awareness. I never said this country was in good shape, it has been going downward for a while now, even prior to that last presidential election. Bush is not my boy, and I do not protect him at all cost, I am only sheading light from a non biased standpoint. If Bush does something detremental to our nations secuirty or governemnt structure, you can be sure I'll be the first to stand against him. If this administration puts us in a more compramised world position that the last, I will slam him and his administration, you can be sure of that. I am not mindless or easily lead astray, I am aware and I do my very best to keep informed and current on all the issues. I am not mislead by the populist, or am I one to blindly follow orders. I base my political views on intense analysis, historical record, and normalazation of trends. I do have a good understanding of constitiutional and international law, as well as foriegn policy. I was a very young and eager actitivist who wanted to pursue a future in politics as teenager, but things changed for me. So believe me when I say, I do not have the slightest concern that you could belittle me or destroy me. From what I have read in your diluted and heavily influenced debate, you couldn't even touch me on a political platform. But you did make me laugh, so I'll give you that..

i swore i wouldn't get involved in this....alas

The problem as I see it with the actions of the Bush Administration and the British is that they acted alone. Yes, other countries joined (were bought off), but it was manly an American/British war.

It doesn't matter if there were WMD's, terrorist, etc.etc. There are lot's of countries that qualify for these things (Korea). Saddam was the worst among many in a region where the US wanted to make a show of force and so he got taken out as an example to other leaders (dictators) in the surrounding countries.

Why did the Bush administration do this?

- To protect against terrorism? Maybe a little.
- To gain control of more Oil? Doesn't hurt to have more Oil.
- To test drive their new tanks? Hey, generals can only play defense for so long.

- To set a new precident in American foriegn policy that will allow the US to increase their Political/Economic/Military dominance in the world? Bingo.

The US did what they though was in their best interest. And maybe in the long term it will be. My own opinion is that countries shouldn't be allowed to do whatever they think is in their own best interest when it comes to international affairs without the consent of a UN majority. Why? Because every country does what is in their own best interest. Everyone.

So should we let Korea develope a nuclear program because they might need to destroy Japan sometime in the future? Should China be allowed to kick Taiwan's ass? etc. etc.

Frankly, I don't buy the 'We are the US and we are the most free nation in the world therefore we are the best and we know what's best for everyone esle so shut up if you don't like us' philosophy.

Sure the US is free, but if they are any more free than people in Canada, UK, France, Netherlands, Japan, etc. etc. then it is by fractions, and in no way gives you the moral superiority that is used to justify it's actions in many of these debates.

(Side note: In my opinion Americans who believe this look at other countries and think 'they don't have the NFL and Macdonads' and this translates into 'America is more free than they are'. Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against American culture, in fact i am quite fond of it. However, lack of American culture does not equal lack of freedom. Sure you have the most magazines and newspapers, you have more money to pay for them all. But name a western country where freedom of speech is not allowed.)

The thing is, if you want to remove dictatorships then they should have said that's what they wanted to do. However, if they want to remove terrorism then you will have to work with the countries where terrorist ideolgy is breeded into youth (Saudi Arabia) and stop it at the source. Attacking Arab nations, even if it is for their own benefit, will only encourage terrorism.

The last point i'll make is that both Afganistan and Iraq are a mess. Instilling democratic structures into these countries will take decades because the majority of the people have to get used to placing there trust in the government and it's institutions for stability to occur. Historically democracy has usually only worked succesfully after a significant period of occupation by a nation (usually England or France) that forced these institutions into place.

If the US continues to occupy Iraq for the neccessary time required for democracy to take hold terrorism will grow tenfold. They are now realising this, and now they need the UN because it is seen as a neutral authority, and not the 'western devil'. (Well, not as much as the US). Which is why they should have taken the time to lay out the entire strategy and get everyone on board, instead of jumping the proverbial gun because they though the population is stupid and they could only get support while 9/11 was fresh on the collective conscience.