So in essence, who you think you are is a bunch of pre-conceptions, misconceptions, prejudices and biases, formed by previous experiences that control the way you think in the present moment.

Pretty cool existence man. Pretty cool.

That would be my worldly identity yeah...

The one which you hold so dearly.

I've just come across a story that illustrates the true self quite well. It is a Taoist story, so if you are not aware of their beliefs just replace The Tao with Universe (for non-theists) or The Tao with God (for theists).

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"Master," the disciple asked, "what exactly is the true self?"

The sage replied, "Ultimately, your true self is the Tao and the Tao is you."

"I find that hard to believe, Master. The Tao is great; I am insignificant. The Tao is powerful; I have but a little strength. The Tao is unlimited; I labor under many limitations. The Tao is everywhere; I can only be in one place at a time. As far as I can tell, the Tao and I are completely different. How can you say that I am ultimately the Tao and the Tao is me?"

Rather than to respond directly, the sage handed the disciple a bowl: "Go to the nearby river with this and use it to bring back some water, then we'll continue the discussion."

The disciple carried out the order, but when he came back, the sage looked at the bowl and frowned. "Didn't I tell you to fetch the water from the river? This can't be it."

"But it is, Master," the disciple was confused by the disapproval. "I collected the water by dipping the bowl into the river. I assure you that this water absolutely is from the river."

"I know the river quite well," the sage said. "All kinds of fish swim in it, but I don't see any fish in this water. Numerous animals come to the river to drink from it, and yet I see no animals in this bowl. Many children from the village frolic in the shallows of the river. Well, I see no children here either. Therefore, this cannot be the water from the river."

"Master, it is only a small amount of water, of course it cannot contain all those things!"

"Oh, I see," said the sage. "Well, in that case, I want you to go pour the water back into the river."

The disciple did so with a puzzled expression on his face. He couldn't help but wonder what had possessed the sage to act so strangely. He completed his task and returned.

"Is the water back in the river?" the sage asked. The disciple nodded.

"Good," said the sage. "That small amount of water you brought back is now the same water that touches the fish, the animals and the children. In fact, everything that the river is now applies to the water we were both looking at just a while ago.

"Think of the river as the Tao and the water in the bowl as your true self. From a limited point of view, that water seems very different from the river. It is understandable how one can be led to believe that the two are not the same and can never be the same. The river is far greater than the bowl of water, just as the Tao is far greater than an individual human being.

"Having carried water from the river, you can now see it from an expanded perspective. The river is the source of the water, just as the Tao is the source of our true inner selves. You saw this for yourself as you dipped the bowl into the river, so you insisted that the water was the same even when I tried to convince you it wasn't.

"When you poured the water back, you saw that the separation of the water from the river was only temporary. It's just like that for the true self. Our physical existence is only a temporary condition. The eternal truth is that our innermost nature comes from, and ultimately returns to, the Tao. When all is said and done, we and the Tao are one."

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Well.. For starters.......He asked the guy to bring back some water FROM the river.....Not the whole river......

But other than that..

Its only really an ultimate philosophy if you look at life only from the physical plane we exist on and neglect anything beyond this reality that surrounds us.

Which is comming to conclusions based on limited knowledge.

Which is why me and you often have dissagreements...

Becuase these taoist dudes are conditioning you to think a certain way...

So thats your point? That he asked him to bring back water from the river?

Im glad you can read and all that, but honestly what does that have to do with anything? It is a very simple story, with a clear meaning, and it relates perfectly to things we have talked about before. It would be better for you to make an argument against the meaning of the story, that relates to what we are talking about in this thread.

What conclusions am I coming to based on lmited knowledge?

How am I being conditioned by something in which one of the main teachings is to get rid of your conditioned mind and ponder issues with a clear mind?

Ignor the small flaw I pointed out.. I was just making an observation..

And I just told you the point I was making..

This philosophy only works for things contained in this physical plane (the universe we see).. And they come to the conclusion that because we are part of a physical plane we are part of god.

But they dont know if this physical plane is even reletive to what god is, why should he be limited to this reality?

Our connection with god does not nessecarily mean we are part of him.

Whether you replace 'the tao' with god or the universe.....This will never be an ultimate theory because none of us can truely know what is beyond what we see.

And sure they tell you to drop all mental conditioning.. But their folly is in them then in-directly attempting to make you think on the same wavelength as they do.

Which, as I have just demonstrated... Is not nessecarily correct...

If it were only related to the physical plane, it wouldnt be a spiritual belief. I really think that before you attempt to talk about something, at least know a bit about what you're discussing.

Obviously the connotations assosciated with the word God are very great, The Tao is more suitable. But to use that you need to know what The Tao is. I simply said replace it with God so it would be easier to grasp hold of the concept, and how it can relate to christianity.

They never tell you what to think. If you practice what they say to practice you will find yourself acting and thinking on the same wavelength anyway. This is why in "religions" such as Zen Buddhism, little meaning is placed on scriptures. All you need is right there. In Zen temples, they do not study scriptures, they live their lives. Only once a year are scriptures ever used, and in these ceremonies really all they do is play around. Since the scriptures are kept on zig-zag folded paper between two pieces of wood, they are a lot like slinkies. So for one day of the year they bring out the scriptures and play around with them, then put them away.

Your conditioning is the only reason you or anyone else would ever consider "god" being some sort of being external from the universe, or a sentient, concious being such as a "man in the sky" or an alien or some lifeform on a different plane of existence. Not to be offensive to you, or christians, or anyone else who may have that thought, but its just downright absurd. But the way we talk about spiritual matters in our society you are conditioned to think that.

"God, help me!"
"Pray to God"
"God will save us"
"God the father in heaven"

We are told that god is everywhere, god is all things, god is all around us and inside all of us. Yet we still somehow create these images of god... Not false idols in the sense of statues we worship, but even worse. False idols that are images in our own minds, the hardest misconceptions to get rid of. Even if you are not a christian you are affected by these notions.

So please, before attacking something such as taoism which encourages free thought, open-mindedness, and tried and true pathways to content life (that are indeed subject to change based on any new discoveries that are made... Which, by the way, has happened a lot over the years and is still happening now. Cases in which old sages writings are re-interpreted or added onto so that they relate to life in the modern day, due to things like scientific advancement are not uncommon.. But also writings so full of truth that they are still relevant today are abundant). You should consider your own situation deeply, and how your conceptions and mind have been formed by your life up until now.

Thats just the thing man...

You say so confidently that god is the universe and everything around us.

Your conditioned and you dont even realise it...

Shits kind of sad really...

Im not talking about God.

What im saying is "the universe and everything around us." It may not seem like it makes sense, but thats the only thing im saying. You can slap the label of God onto it, if you see fit, and everything said in the bible co-incides with it. You could consider it a God if you want. Thats not saying I do, or I dont, its saying I could, or if I wanted to I could not.

I know im conditioned. It may take me a while, but im shedding my self and my ego at a steady rate. I try to look at things from every possible perspective, and understand where people are coming from, so that in the end I can see the correctness and fault in every viewpoint, including my own.

You can call me sad, if you want.

Only reason I replaced the tao with god is because I was told to...

And if its not god your speaking of...

Then I guess their not really wrong...

Our physical selves are that of the universe as we are seemingly made of the same material when we see the universe from our perspective.

Although its highly probable that there is a lot more to a human being than simply what is in/what is relevant to the universe. Therefore I hope the tao covers the unknown aswell..

Which would mean the guys basically saying................I got no fucking idea what my true self is so I'll label it something and try to sound wise anyway...

My advice would be do some research, live your everyday life in the mindstate that a taoist sage or zen monk would, thinking the way they do... If you dont feel at all different, or you dont like the change, continue as you would have had you not gave it a go.

Or you could just not give it a try, and continue living how you are now. Thats perfectly fine as well.

I play the game of life...

Living as a monk isnt my calling.. I'm always interested in hearing other peoples ideas.. But I wont conform to their mindstate just to 'experience what its like to be them'...

Zen is all about playing the game of everyday life. The only reason a Zen monk would exist, is because he has lost the plot and needs guidance. He will leave the monastery in his own time, once the master there thinks he is ready. This could take a short visit of 3 days, or it could take living there for 30 years. The most common time is 10 years.

You can have the mindstate without becoming a monk, and even without having a teacher.

I see..

So a Zen monistary........In the way youve described it...

Is kind of like a mental institution...