Hip-Hop Purists vs. Rappers!! YA"LL NEED TOO READ
 

Written by Change
Tuesday, 02 May 2006


Hip-Hop Purists vs. Rappers.

I sit here staring at my computer screen in awe right now... This could be from a number of different things, but some contributing factors today are the situation caused by hurricane Katrina, the rising gas prices, as well as the numerous annoying adds from a certain search engine advertising their music downloads 24/7. Regardless of all that, there's a purpose to my blatant rant today...

Hip-Hop purists vs. Rappers is an on-going never ending debate in today's music world. Regardless of your position as an Artist (like myself) or as an avid fan (I fall victim here as well). The typical diatribe generally posted about this never ending cycle usually contains one distinct element from one or both sides of the coin... Elitism. Frankly, I don't give a... wait, no I actually do care.

See, here's the fundamental problem of this debate. Hip-Hop purists firmly believe one or more of the following:

1. True Hip-Hop is about lyricism and depth through metaphorical wordplay.
2. No 808's dogg, just a raw beat with dirty drums, nice samples for a melody, and some nice cuts.
3. Fame and Glory isn't "real Hip-Hop", I can rip any commercial emcee in a battle and "keep it real".
4. True Hip-Hop is underground, and when the commercial industry catches on, real emcees will get to shine.

Now, since I'm debating with my imaginary backpacker friend here, let me counterpoint those fallacies.

1. Hip-Hop is what it is... It's what we make it. It was created by the people, for the people, for entertainment purposes. I don't ever remember hearing Kool Herc say "if you don't spit something deep and meaningful with four layers of depth for listeners to weed through, it's not Hip-Hop". It seems that a large amount of people think that the originator of Hip-Hop would be disgusted with today's scene... But on the contrary, I'd beg to differ. It's highly documented (do some research, please!) that in the birthplace of Hip-Hop (the Bronx DJ parties) that almost anyone rhyming on the mic at the time, was doing so to get the party moving. Keeping the crowd stimulated meant saying rhymes with shout outs to crowd members, and keeping a tight rhythm with the break so the people could dance... Thus the ultimate contradiction to a Hip-Hop purists point of view (dun dun dun...) Hip-Hop was born with the intention of being party music. Sorry to disappoint some of you.

2. By now I'm sure you've heard the critique of many of today's top mainstream producers which usually states "Them 808's is tired man... Can't Lil Jon make a beat without em?"... Well, much to my surprise, he can, and has, and has been producing for many many years without them... But now we want to hate the dude because he found a signature sound and he's getting paid for it. Now, I can't and won't speak for Dangermouse, MF Doom, or any underground purist producer... But if you were making $250K minimum on a simple 808 drum beat with some synths, claps, and hi-hats, would you do it? Oh I know... you'd "keep it real" and stay broke because you're in it for the "luv", I forgot. Moving on...

3. Some Elitists.. err, I mean "purists" feel that if you can't battle, you aren't an emcee, and you're definitely not Hip-Hop. I mean, battling is almost as old as DJing. Africa Bambaataa is often considered the originator of battle raps, as his conformed street gang (Black Spades) turned Hip-Hop crew (Universal Zulu Nation) would often battle other crews on the mic to forego violence. Battling in it's own right has come full circle now that the new generation of "B-Rabbit's" has hit the internet. However, I don't remember the founders of Hip-Hop ever claiming that you couldn't MC if you didn't battle. Here's some questions I'll throw out, and yes they're rhetorical. Why do we as emcees have so much pride? Why can't we "get over it" when people don't like our music? Why is the man who walks away from a diss, considered the "punk"? When will congress investigate Hip-Hop's use of ego steroids?

The flipside of the battle coin reveals some interesting debate as well. Why do underground battle cats feel like they can rip any commercial emcee? I've heard so many cats say "I'd murder 50 in a battle, dude is weak..." when I stop to think, "Have you heard his mixtapes from before he got signed to Shady/Aftermath?" I mean, dude was sick lyrically speaking, and he practically made the mixtape scene what it is today. Just because a commercial artist makes music for the clubs and party scene, doesn't mean they aren't as lyrical as they once were. Of course you can argue the "Piggybank was weak" card (which it was) but, I don't doubt for a minute that 50 could (and would) rip a large portion of these underground heads in a battle. Cam' is a great example of someone who makes horrible commercial music, with tired lyrics, who made his name on the battle scene. Really, I appreciate the undergrounds confidence in their skills, but don't underestimate the major league players. Let's move on...

4. I'm not sure how many times I've heard this argument, not to mention how many times I've likely stated the same while trying to get my foot in the industry. But let's take a look at our beloved "Rap Game" and see what has truly taken place... Underground DJ's provide breakbeats for MC's to rhyme over, to keep party goers moving on the dance floor... The first commercially successful rap record is released by "The Sugar Hill Gang". This spawns an uprising of many more party records to come, with rap lyrics at the forefront (come on, even Blondie got in on it). Soon, the underground battles started spawning commercial battles like LL Cool J vs. Kool Mo Dee and KRS-One vs. MC Shan. During this time period, more and more people began using the art of rapping to talk about the street life and crime, and what was taking place in their hoods. Thus the birth of NWA and similar artists throughout the late 80's and early 90's. From Ice Cube and Eazy-E, to Treach, Two-Short, and 2Pac... The industry soon became obsolete for people like Father MC and Big Daddy Kane. But during this period in the early 90's, the underground was abuzz with sounds from an artist who called himself MC Hammer (don't front, you've still got the tape cassette) and soon enough, the industry was back into Party mode. The oddity here, was that the industry now made room for party rappers as well as gangster rappers, as it recognized the market for both... Oddly enough, all these styles originated in the underground...

Do you see where I'm headed? The industry always conforms to the underground movement. The industry follows trends, it doesn't set them. Everything you hear on the radio today, was being done in the underground a couple years ago. It's the way it works... Purists who are waiting for the industry to catch on to the underground will never get to shine. Why? They can't see the forest through the trees. They're too busy waiting for the industry to recognize their art form that by the time it finally does, they're upset because it's become "commercialized". It's a vicious cycle, and one reason (in my opinion) why we have so many disgruntled underground emcees.

Now, I've spent most of my time here bagging on the flawed viewpoints of the purists but, don't get it twisted. Some of these party rappers think the only true purpose of Hip-Hop music, is to get paid. A lot of them think that they can forego any technical skill in rhyming (bar structure, rhyme scheme, internal rhyming) to cash in on a paycheck if they're "hood" enough. It's time we put this rumor to rest... We have the power in our hands, to not purchase the lyrically weak records out there. Especially those promoting a thugged out lifestyle of pimping, drugs, and violence. Let me introduce a newsflash to all you rap fans... Your favorite rapper doesn't move weight on the block to get paid. If you actually believe that crap, then you deserve the consequences of that lifestyle. When was the last time anyone saw 50 Cent on the corner in Queens pushing rock? When was the last time anyone saw Young Jeezy pushing flakes in the hood? It doesn't happen folks... They get paper off of album sales, and touring. Not from moving birds.

Let me make this clear, I'm not questioning the credibility of these artists past lifestyle at all. I myself come from that lifestyle and know it firsthand. However, I am questioning the content of their lyrics promoting that lifestyle as a viable solution to getting paid. It's odd to me, that we live in a society where we praise the people telling our youth to push drugs and pop rounds by rewarding them with celebrity and wealth. All the while, it's nearly impossible for an emcee (like myself) who promotes a way out of the street life through their lyrics to get any kind of shine. Since when is getting an education and finding a legal hustle such a bad thing for our youth to hear?

Now don't get me wrong, I love the rugged underground Hip-Hop and I even make some of it myself. I frequently listen to people like Mars ILL, Pigeon John, Aesop Rock, MF Doom, One Be Lo, and many other unknown underground heads. I truly enjoy the music. But I also love the music for the hood, and the people in the street who are dealing with the very things I've dealt with in my lifetime... Murder, gangs, and poverty. My position in this ongoing feud is basically a go-between both forms of the art, while recognizing both forms as valid representation of what Hip-Hop is. I spend too much time being pulled by my purist friends to join their side of the debate, as well as being pulled by my street hustlas to continue to make the music the hood can feel... Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you all, but I'll continue to make both. I am both, and I am an artist who has found a way to meld the two forms together, to where I have both groups purchasing my albums and enjoying the music for what it is...

I am Hip-Hop, won't you join me?

that was too long i aint reading it

its worth it


BELIVE ME

i'm suprized ya'll aint reading more of this

This is true, but what he's talking about is mainly subjective. I don't listen to mainstream shit unless it's good... To me, those crunk beats are annoying and the messages the songs in the limelight put across to young generations is disgusting. Not to mention the mindless lyrics.

A few months ago me and nos were talking about this. Basically his philosophy is the same as that guys: appeal to both audiences, appreciate good music from both styles, and make both styles.

i'm jus gonna get an idea from the responses of this thread as i ain't reading that too long

ye...word to hip hop

Why are people so lazy when it comes to reading -_-

i unno it's like i couldn't even be bothered to strain my eyes to work out who's name was on that sword in ya sig :thumbup:

Pretty ill ay :)

But I guess you'll never know since you didn't read it :guy:

opinions



Art is subjective.








1

ye...guess i'll jus have to go through life not knowing

fuck "labels" like underground or mainstream or wht ever the hell else, just make music. let other people classify it how ever the hell they want, who cares.

its all hip hop.there is no Rapper that isnt hip hop..rap is a form/element within the hip hop culture.why are people forgetting that now days?

idk if I agree with how the labels were presented....


I see the "rapper" as more of the way you classified "hip hop " and it seems "hip hop" is the mainstream glit and glamour.....maybe because of the number of people claiming to be "hip hop" now and ruining it's image...

I see me as a lyricist...and maybe a bit of a rapper...but not as the rapper you described above.

I don't disagree with the ones you label "rappers" either though, because hip hop is everyones and sometimes we need a brainless club joint to jam to instead of thought out metaphors and lyricism...

Not only that, but whose to say that what's considered "deep and intellectual" is really "deep and intellectual"?






1

Rap and Hip Hop are not the same. far from it. And Cho's right on the money, with so many watered down commercial giants claiming that they're hip hop, it's lost virtually all meaning so you've got a generation of listeners who think they're one in the same.

it's like shades of gray that are labeled "black" but none of them are.

say what????

you're kidding right?

care to elaborate?

Check this...

There are things some people consider "deep" than I think are mundane, and maybe vice versa. It's all subjective. It all depends on your education and experiences.

But rap is hip hop. how can people seperate the two.. hip hop purist vs rappers? no such thing should have even been developed no matter how intellectual and deep one is with hip hop or not. Graffers=Hip hop,DJ's=Hip Hop,Bboys-Girls=hip hop..so why is certain rap NOT being considered hip hop just because of lyrical content or just because of the lack of impact in the hip hop community??..its still rap. which is part of hip hop. which in fact would mean rap is hip hop..hip hop is the movement and culture.

true, but why internalize it? Its like if someone was rapping about Rocket Science. The heneral concensus is gonna say "this is deep" but a rocket scientist is gonna say it's mundane.


guess how it's gonna end up being classified.

Deep.

Just cuz the rocket scientist comes out and says it mundane isn't gonna make everyone else say it's not "Deep Music".

It's everybodys own opinion on what you think.
As for me I'd rather be a mainstream getting crunk with lil' Jon.
YEAYAA!!!

Rap is NOT Hip Hop. You just hit on the main point and didn't realize it, Rap is UNDER Hip Hop, it's an off-shoot of Hip Hop, rap is not "Hip Hop". When I say "Hip Hop" I mean Hip Hop MUSIC. The MUSIC that fuels all those other movements like grafitti and b-boying, scratching, etc which are not music at all. Hip Hop is the music they revolve around. Rap is the commercialized clone of Hip Hop.


Hip Hop has nothing to do with: Intellect, lyrical ability, public impact, etc. That's the point. Hip Hop is not about status. Rap is all about status. "look at what I got, look at me, I get all the bitches I'm thugged out!!" that's the image. Hip Hop is not about an image.

okay but you say hip hop music...what is hip hop music....i thought it was rap.right? so how can u say its a commercialized clone of hip hop when hip hop music IS rap. its not country its not pop. Hip hop music IS rap. Hip Hop Culture is the music/Rap. and the rest of the 3 elements that are included.

once agian rap is not hip hop and hip hop is not rap. To even say that you're spreading mis-information like woah.

You may not know this but "Hip Hop" existed long before "rap", before there was even a term called "rap" or people called "rappers". The music they created was rhymed over a beat with a heavy bassline. It became the voice of the urbanite and grew into a unique form of music that reached out from the hoods and ghettos.

Once Big Business discovered that HipHop is profitable, they invented "Rap". Rap is a form of music that uses elements of Hip Hop (like heavy basslines and spoken in rhyme) to promote an image that you buy into, mostly for escapism. To "take your mind off of reality and let you live the fantasy" of the cars, houses, jewelry, women, clubs, money and everything else the urbanite dreamed of. What ever it was, the rapper would claim to embody and he'd paint the picture of a person who's life is "larger than life". You got a young inner city kid without a father figure - this rappers false reality makes him that boys hood-hero. The "rapper" was a living product you used to escape your reality. A human drug. Big business's organic source of revenue.

Fastforward to today where "rappers" have pushed hip hop out of its position, they're all backed by Big Business in the form of "major labels" and they're still selling the image of escapism. This time around, they're not just a living product, they're franchizes; clothes, shoes, t-shirts, cologne, perfume, and anything else they can stick their likeness on and sell.

It's been this way since the late 80's, so sorry to say but anyone who didn't have the opportunity to listen to hip hop back then have been pumped full of "rap" and it's actors who want to validate the product...errr......"prove their real"... by saying any and everything to make you believe it, like they're about hip hop and that they're really street and lived a tough life and all this other stuff. It's not real. all manufactured.


PS, though bigge is far form the only one, even Bigge's mom said he lied in Juicy saying he grew up poor. He lied about his entire history. They were middle class and lived in a 2 bedroom house, not a 'one bedroom shack'. She says "look at how heavy bigge was, he was always a chubby kid almost all his life. you don't get that chubby by not being well-fed".

similar type story for Ice Cube, Onyx, and whole host of other "rappers".

Just part of the image.

Oh yeah, don't let this put you under the impression that everyone who raps is fake, there are many real emcees who actually live the life they say they do and there are countless emcees who speak reality. Just understand that the gross majority of what you hear is not real. Nearly everything you hear on the radio is not true.

So, my point is, hip hop can not be defined by terms such as "deep" or "intellectual" when not everyone even agrees on what "deep" or "intellectual" is.




1

refer back to my example with the rocket scientist.

the opinions of the small percentage of listeners isn't going to change everybody elses mind as to if the music is "deep" or not deep. Because quite frankly no one gives aflying fuck what the rocket scientist thinks.

but I've never seen a category for rap called "Deep" in my entire life so this discussion is pretty much pointless.

nah...some people define "real" hip hop as deep aka "lyricism"...I'm saying who are they to define anything else as "fake" when, again, not everone agrees what is "lyrical" (deep/intellectual).

Perfect example: So many people consider Triple N "deep" and "lyrical" on this site and I've yet to see it. So, for them, he's "real" hip hop and someone who isn't as "deep" isn't?


nah

Whats Wrong With All Of You Is That You Think Hip Hop Is Your Opinion
Hip Hop Is Not Rap Nor Is It A Opinion,

Hip Hop Is Culture Hip Hop Is A Way Of Life!!!!

someone saying lyricism makes a person deep must be a real slow learner. that makes no sense what so ever.


I've never seen someoen say N was deep nor lyrical, and definitely not "deep because he's lyrical" so I can't speak on that. take it up with who ever you're saying said it.

i dont define hip hop that way

good example big daddy kane isnt deep and he is real hip hop

^^exactly. He's super lyrical, but not at all deep.

anyone saying "lyrcal" = "deep" is a moron grasping at the english language.



tell em Apexx said it!

no one ever said hip hop was an opinion. i know its not an opinion.
and for you to say d4L isnt hip hop but then say hip hop is a way of life thats contridicting yourself. who are you to say the life that d4l potray isnt hip hop? its sure as hell isnt a Gothic lifestyle or Emo lifesytle. just because you people think certain artists arent up to par or perfect role models for hip hop u strip them from being hip hop..



and last i still say and So has a bunch of other artists...


Hip Hop consists of 4 elements..we arent talking about the past..what it is NOW.

Rapping
DJ'n
Breaking
Graffing


If i am correct having anything to do with these four elements..OR even having a understanding and respect and love for any of these for elements would make you hip hop. RnB singers are also influenced by the hip hop community although they dont take part in any of the elements..THEY in fact still lead a hip hop lifestyle.

so its you live a hip hop lifestyle...and you take part in the hip hop culture that makes you hip hop.


and lockness..what is fake or real hip hop?

that statement just screams that your knocking talent just because its not your taste

any whack artist in the industry that you might not like is there for a reason. because they have a creative way of delivering the shit they put out. just because YOU dont like it doesnt mean someone else doesnt. thats when YOUR opinion steps in and trys to speak up for actual facts.

fake hip hop: anyone who claims to be about the culture, origins, and history of our music, but aren't. They profit by telling you stories to make you think they're genuine in order to add credibility to their own name and dollars to their own pocket.

merk not for nada but I think at this point in the game one would have to wipe their slate clean as to what they see "hiphop" as seeing that the media sources that told you what "hip hop" is the same corporations raking in billions off of the image they created which they want you to believe is real. This reminds me of the book Simulacra and Simulacrum which basically states that the simulation has replaced the original. Synthetic has taken the role that Authentic once had. Perfect analogy for Rap and Hip Hop.

Unless someone witnessed the rise and peak of hip hop, the concious awareness of the era hip hop was born and thrived in, the drive of the hip hop artist for expression of a black voice in music, you'd lose the connection without this prior knowledge. Some things are intangible and can't be expressed with words.

Imagine for a minute that you became sick and a robot was created in your exact likeness to exist in your place. It has polished renditions of mannerisms that people found favorable in you, it looks like you, talks feels and smells like you, hell, it even says it is you! but it lacks the texture of personality that you have. the soul deep within. when it smiles...you look at it and you know it's not real. designed to look real, but deep down you know you're peering into the surface of a machine. It would be hard for someone that knew the original you to have that same love for a mechanized replica of you, and even harder to explain the difference to someone who never knew you.