Kids
 

Terumoto: For
Apexx: Against



The reason I'm against having kids is that it's 2006. The age where one can raise a child in a world where they have a fair chance or can be the best they can be is long gone. Big corporations have a vested interest in every concievable fraction of your life which overrules their concern for your best interest. It's common place to see a known poison concealed as a treat, and they rake in the billions upon trillions by keeping you ignorant to that fact. Disease, pollution, and premature death are at record highs and rising linearly with corproate profits. This morbid symbiotism is no coincidence.

Additionally, the world today is teeming with sickos. Even if one were to somehow overcome the barrage of deception from the corporate beasts, at any given moment of any given day your child could be stripped from your life only to turn up nude and discarded in the tall grass beyond a highway guard rail.

These are just a few of the abundant reasons why having children in this day and age is not what it used to be and unquestionably not what it should be. Anyone with a genuine heart and eyes beyond blind idealism would care far too much for their unborn to bring them into a world so cruel.

This world is great. If you were really that concerned, you could just move away from the city.

But people don't care, or are too dumb to notice. It is a foolish thought to think you can raise your kid how you want, I agree. Buuttt... We still gotta have kids man.

Leaving 'the city'? are you implying that living in the wilderness is a solution? and I do think the world is great, i just think it's no place to raise kids in. if you agree with my point of view then we have no debate.

but there's no reason "we still gotta have kids" in this day and age other than someone's need to serve their own vanity and ego. I mean name one practical reason to have a child today.

Living in a rural town would be a better place to raise kids. You could give them your own conditioning, rather than them be conditioned how the world wants them to be.

To continue the human race?

Although, I bet you theres nobody who has kids thinking "Yup. I'm doing my part for the human race right now." I think the most common reasons are "omg omg kk lets make a little you and me, it will be so COOL. And we can give it a name and everything!" or "My bloodline must go on. I must live on, but I can't so i'll have a child, thats the next best thing." or "What do you mean you're pregnant?"

ironically enough, the sickos i was reffering to lurk in the suburbs. That's where the bulk of fatal sexual offenses against youths occur. rapes and other violent sexual offenses seem to gravitate toward cities.



the world is 35% overpopulated, i think it's safe to say that you could never have a child in your life and the human race would be pretty safe. the other reasons you listed i think we both agree, are vanity fueled.

so once again, name one practical reason to have a kid in this day and age.

Yeah but what are you proposing? That some people stop having kids, and others continue? A law on who can have kids and who can't?

I bet you that shit will happen in the future. You'll need a parenting license or some shit to have a kid.

what you're describing already exists in China and India in a more crytic form, but that's no where near what I'm proposing. I'm proposing that one uses their own logical discretion intead of feeding their idealistic ego.

but I do recall asking you a direct question no less than twice and still haven't gotten a direct answer. name one practical reason to have kids in this day and age.

Practical reasons are stupid.

Name one practical reason for living.

^^ooohh now practical reasons are "stupid" lmao, sounds like a white flag to me. i thought your point of view for having kids was hinged on substance but apparantly it isn't lol.

a practical reason for living? to accomplish the things you can only do through living, namely to ignite your DNA, refresh your memory and awake the inner god to fulfill a purpose bigger than being a slave to materialism. practical enough for ya? *puts OMB in the cobra clutch* :D

Well other than that one reason which is barely even a reason that I mentioned before (continuing humans), there is nothing. That's the only reason. I understand you aren't arguing that people should stop having kids, because if everyone did then the human race would be kaput. With what you're referring to, there is no practical reason.

Is that really a practical reason for living?

OK, so we dont end up in completely different places, i'll grab a quick definition for practical:

1. Capable of being used or put into effect; useful.
2. Intended to serve a purpose without elaboration.

So a use for, or meaning of life. "to accomplish the things you can only do through living, namely to ignite your DNA, refresh your memory and awake the inner god to fulfill a purpose bigger than being a slave to materialism."

Mkay. Igniting DNA, useless. The next part is interesting though. Become enlightened and fulfill a bigger purpose than being a slave to materialism. You mean sort of live your life, go about your business, slowly and steadily become detached from material things and then maybe one day after you've finished preparing you'll become a buddha?

And what after that? What is your purpose after you awaken? You said to fulfill a bigger purpose, so before I can keep raving on I need to know what that purpose is. Please, tell me, what is the purpose of a buddha? (Don't say to enlighten others.)

okay so now we're phasing into a new topic?

I believe that's a wrap then sir, the debate is over, seeing as that was the original purpose of this discussion. Definitely been fun.

For shits and giggles I'll go into the second topic since the first is over.


igniting your DNA isn't useless, it's the doorway to the other steps which couldn't occur without it. And no, becoming unfettered by your material desires isn't the sole purpose seeing that balance is key. the point is to not be a slave ot them, that's different from removing them from your presence. this of course is irrelevant, in this context, to becoming a buddha, though that would be one of the many channels to this process.



what's wrong with enlightening others? you make it sound liek a bad thing. i think you're asking something seperate to what I'm talking about. but the purpose of a buddha specifically is infact to enlighten and inspire others while in his physical life. in his/her after life they become the mass of energy known as karma or life force where they can make far bigger differences, jsut as your deceased loved ones manifest as spirit guides for your family.


BTW, my definition of "practical" is the every-day usage, which is: Level-headed, efficient, and unspeculative.

Ah I see.. What sect of buddhism would you consider yourself part of or your beliefs most similar to?

In zen (it's major Taoist influences not to be ignored), a man who awakens in the morning can die without any regret or second thought in the evening. Enlightening others is done by people going to them, not them going to people, and it would not bother them if nobody came to them. The great Taoist sages didn't even like teaching, because in fact they have nothing to teach. A buddha in zen actually has no purpose. The very essence of it is it is the religion of no religion. Sure, they DO teach but it is not their purpose.

There is a zen poem by basho that conveys it quite well.

Old pond,
frog jumps in
- splash

truthfully none. I use the teachings of buddhism selectively to suit my needs pertaining to enlightenment, i don't suscribe to buddhist hindu-philosophy.



That's all well and good but buddhism is pointless without being selfless. The entire point of enlightening one's self and ascending is to help ascend others. Spreading enlightenment is part of raising the general awareness, which is why monks take in students. If what you are saying were true, there would have only been one buddha.

I think you're taking far too great of a stoic view on buddhism. that only applies to suffering, not to the purpose of existance.

BTW, this topic has strayed into the "irrelevant zone". we came in here to debate the discussion of having kids or not having kids. a discussion you layed down.

anything else?

Hmm, well im not really that passionate about that kids thing, and I basically agree with you on it. Like I said, im neutral when it comes to having kids. I dont desperately want to, but I wouldnt mind if I did. I was just arguing "for" for the sake of the argument. lol -_-



No, you've missed the point. Being selfless? That is showing loving kindness and compassion to sentient beings, not preaching. I guarantee 99/100 people you preach to wont give a shit about what you're saying at all. The Buddha himself said not to waste your time in companionship with a fool. Also,

64. If a fool be associated with a wise man even all his life, he will perceive the truth as little as a spoon perceives the taste of soup.

65. If an intelligent man be associated for one minute only with a wise man, he will soon perceive the truth, as the tongue perceives the taste of soup.

If somebody really wants to attain enlightenment, they will do it themselves. You can help them if you want, but its not the purpose of enlightenment at all. If it was, enlightenment would be as useless as the next material object. There is a story of a man who was very wise, that decided to write commentaries on the sutras so that he could help other people become wise also. I can't remember the exact turn of events, but something happened to him and then he became enlightened, and he burned all of his commentaries that he had spent over 10 years writing. He said "Compared to what I have attained, these writings are a fine hair in this entire universe, nothing more than a single drop in the vast ocean."

To look to the future, hoping some day that you will be enlightened and you will be wiser than everyone else, so much so that you can help them... Is pointless. That's just your conditioning kicking in. "Things will be better later on." They won't.

The purpose of enlightenment is to have no purpose.

^^check ya pms before i murder you..:rolleyes:

what a waste. your "point" eroded to dust as you went on anyway, regardless of how you felt. or not felt as the case may be.





woah woah woah, nobody said anything about pushing enlightenment on anyone. that's foolish. since you're in a quoting mood "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear". I never met a buddhist who wasn't willing to teach someone who really wanted to know.

that is the act of selflessness.

and enlightening your self soley for the prospect of possibly enlightening others is A: dumb and B: not what i said.

if you want to go through life drifting from one indifference to the next you're a waste of existance. buddhism teaches that one ascends into the vastness of matter for the purpose of ascending others.

if you feel tomorrow won't be better than today that's on you man. i damn sure know my today was beter than my yesterday. and my yesterday is leaps and bounds better than my days were a year ago. then again... i don't drift through life either, so my POV is evidently much different.

That is part of loving kindness and compassion. Telling someone if they truly want to know. Not the purpose of enlightenment. However it wasnt always the case... Chuang Tzu's master made him sit outside his hut for two years, never once inviting him inside. If Chuang Tzu asked him a question, often he would answer it as quickly as possible and go back to his business. It's not that he didn't like Chuang Tzu, but he had absolutely nothing to teach. What was he meant to say to him? "Don't do anything, and you'll be enlightened."




Huh? You're saying you should aim to become enlightened for a reason other than the supposed purpose of enlightenment? I don't get it. Shouldn't you be doing something because of its purpose?

The purpose of enlightenment is NOT to enlighten others. Others becoming enlightened may be a product of your awakening, but it is not the purpose of it. Far from it. The purpose of enlightenment is to have no purpose, to become content with just existence (aka not having a purpose, so dont pull me up on technicalities). If you go to Kyoto around the temples there, you'll notice that the zen monks that are walking have a different walk to the rushy walk of the other japanese... They have a sort of swagger, its a movement forward alright, but not an urgent one. They are walking for the sake of walking, not because they have somewhere in particular to go. This is the mentality of existing to exist.

Look at yourself man. You are completely dependent on the future. Utterly conditioned to be attached to it. I'm not attacking you, we all are brought up in this society with that mentality. Always preparing for something that never comes. You go to pre-school to prepare for school, you go to primary to prepare for high school, you go to high school to prepare for college, you go to college to prepare for work, you go to work to make money so you have prepare for the future and perhaps live a better life when you are richer, as you work you prepare for retirement... Then you retire. You have a lump of cash, scenility, a limp dick, a shitty prostate and bad bones. By this time many people would have put their dependence on the crutch of religion, thinking that in the future when they die they'll go to heaven. It's bullshit man. You are putting hope in the future, saying things will be better, but when the future comes you'll continue to depend on the future because that future aint all its cracked up to be.

Why not be happy now? Right now? What is wrong with this exact moment? If you can find something wrong with it, i'd like to know what it is.

^^dude my head hurts WAY too mcuh to read all of that shit man, skip the fuckin analogies and just get to the fuckin point.

lmao alright

"Why not be happy now? Right now? What is wrong with this exact moment? If you can find something wrong with it, i'd like to know what it is."

so you're saying one should only be satisfied with the current moment? planning allows you to be happy for the future because just drifting through life day by day is a sure fire way to be miserable tomorrow.

I wasn't saying that. Why not answer the question?

And exactly what planning do you have to do not to be miserable tomorrow?

Well, I deem it necessary to have kids to make sure my superb looks genes don't go to waste. Otherwise I'd just be a posterboy to all that is considered "sexy." I REFUSE TO BE A SLAVE TO SUCH MATERIALISM. . or something.

what was your question, why not be happy right now? I am happy right now, and i also want to be happy in the future which is how we get into this plan. And my planning hahaha, i don't get into my business plans b, you could say I'm superstitious like that.

Nah it was "whats wrong with right now?". I guess its the same thing.

Your future happiness is measured by your business plans. Thats not very good at all. -_-

HAHA!! if you say so lmao

Money = your happiness.

Money is pretty nice to have though. When I have it I feel all cool like, "WHAT?! YOU GOT SOMETHING TO SAY?! HOW ABOUT I JUST BUY OUT YOUR DAD'S BUSINESS, JEW BOY?! GO ACCOUNT SOMEWHERE ELSE!"

I've almost convinced myself that I rule the world. People already call me the king, savior, and male Aphrodite.

wrong. not having to worry about money = my happiness. fortifying my family so none of them have to work for somebody else ever again is happiness, i could go on and on.

don't think you know me man, you never met a person like me in your life.

I'm pretty sure I have. His name. . is Brian.

myspace.com/nosamason

Tell me he doesn't remind you of yourself. He actually is one of my friends at school, so it's legit.

spitting image.


with actual spit

Yeah, in case you couldn't tell by his pictures, he has no problems with the ladies. However, he likes Dr. Dre so it's all hood.

What OMB is saying is actually true. =/

you shouldnt think of the negative reasons not to have a child. just have a child so that you can raise and teach this individual everything you know...children are precious ..fuck all the negatives...because everything good will overcome.....just like we are living through the world now..

"i don't see a way...but everything will work out" that's called idealism. Besides, i don't need to have a kid to teach someone everything i know. can teach hundreds of kids without having one.

If yo don't have a kid because of the bad shit, you might as well don't buy anything because it can get stolen.

^i can buy back anything that's stolen.

can you buy your kid back? can you buy bakc all those years?

Well you can give up ownership of what you buy, like you can give up ownership of the child. Like adoption.

i dunno..but your letting the bad things happening in the world defeat your want for a child..
I could see if you didnt want a child just because you cant handle having one. but to say u dont want one just because of negatives in the world is odd...But hey thats your Opin.

and how is tht a benefit exacty? I thought you were listing "pros" not just talking for the sake of talking.