Is the universe intelligent or stupid?
 

By stupid I mean purely mechanical.

What do you reckon?

And what do you mean by intelligent?

Intelligent... Not stupid.

So.. Your basically asking us whether the universe has an imagination and memory?

No, im asking whether its intelligent... Intelligent. Pay attention.

Man, be quick with your replies, im so bored in a library.

I've often thought of the universe much like a human brain, in the way that every planet is moving in orbit around every star, every star is moving around every galaxy, every galaxy is moving on its own orbit towards clusters, etc.

Quite possibly our galaxy is simply a long string of information with a final purpose that will be realised at the time when we finally reach our galactical destination.

Certain religions say god created us in his own image. Is the universe we live in just one big gigantic brain?

Read into quantum physics dude.. If your going to get an answer to your question anywhere, thats the field you want to get into...............

Oh, I've already got an answer. I just wanted to see what other people thought..

So you reckon its intelligent?

smart enough to have invisible things like dark matter/energy etc. but stupid enough to fail an S.A.T.

it would be dope if the universe had a floor or cieling and shit and you could tag on the walls and shit

Your answer would have to be no, that it is stupid...

Am I correct?

Nope, my answer is it is intelligent... Why did you think I thought it was stupid?

Because intelligence is the mothering condition to order....

What gave you that idea?

I believe the universe is intelligent. I mean look at us... We are considered intelligent beings. And we are part of the universe, so the universe can be considered intelligent. Even rock, earth, air, gas, etc shit like that from before life on earth is intelligent through potentiality.

Like, life originated just from rock, moisture etc. So people say "Well, we are a complex form of conciousness and intelligence." While I would say through potentiality, that rock is a primitive form of intelligence and conciousness.

I dont think you realise man...

You saying the universe is intelligent compleatly goes against your chaotic universe theory... If the universe was chaos, there would be no intelligence.

Explain how these two theories of yours can co-exist...

Because you dont understand what im talking about when I refer to the universe being chaotic.

I see it everyday, its apparent to me.

Man from what youve said before you look at the universe as if it was stupid. As if it was a mechanism that works through order with many different little systems in it.

both in actuality!

I think a great deal of the universe is simply systematic cause and effect. I can see what you mean by humans being intelligent and being part of the universe, but that doesent mean the universe is intelligent dude, that just means a quantum level speck of the universe posesses a form of primative intelligence.

If a glass of water contained 0.0000000000001 diluted content of acid. Would you call the entire glass of water acid?

... Where did humans come from?

Obviously a universe with the capacity to produce a huge variety of concious and intelligent beings is intelligent.

But yeah, technically that glass of water would be acidic.

Look bro.. I agree.. There is intelligence in this universe. But just like the acidic glass of water, its only a partial intelligence.

My main problem with your argument is the fact that you believe intelligence can form in a chaotic universe.

You cant have both man... You should either change your ideas about the universe being chaotic or ... be wrong about both.

What created life? A random strike of lightning... Man, the universe having chaos in it doesnt affect it being intelligent at all.

Of course you could say "But the "random" lightning was caused by the system of evaporation and clouds becoming electrically charged then moving to a certain position and reaching an electrical capacity which caused the lightning to strike. The cloud was pushed there by the wind which was most likely caused by a low pressure system in the weather, due to the climate which was caused by a combination of the sun and other factors. The lightning strike that caused primitive life was not chaotic at all."

And you would be right if you said that. But im not wrong.

Give me one good reason why your not wrong when you just proved yourself wrong in your own post bro..

Seriously..

Because what you call order is just a bunch of senseless babble that describes chaos and labels it as order by stating the obvious. I call it chaos, you call it order, same diff.

If something has a cause, its obviously not random.

And that is why nothing is chaotic dude..

I dont know why you cant understand that...

I can understand it perfectly... I just dont believe it.

What about a computer program that is designed to produce a completely random number? It has a cause. The cause is the software, the elctricity, the processor... But its still a completely random number.

Thats a pretty shit example. But I believe that just because something has a superficial cause, doesnt mean its not chaotic.

How is any direct cause superficial?

I understand your frame of mind man... And its cool. Its completely plausible.

But I see chaos all the time in this world, all around me, at every moment. It doesnt matter if the direct cause was this or the direct cause was that, because it would trace back into infinity no matter what the cause.

If there is nothing random in this world, explain to me why identical twins have different appearances and personalities (beyond environment's effect). Explain why exact genetic clones have different fingerprints to that of the organism which they were cloned from (nobody can explain that one, not even top scientists). Walk east from where you are and watch the waves and look at the sand, look at the clouds, look at the grass and trees. If you cant see chaos in the world you arent seeing the world for what it is.

By the way, you are the product of something random.

Here is where your being naieve..

Our currant scientific collective of knowledge on things such as DNA are not yet complete. What your not realising is that there would be a plausable explenation for all these things, we, as a species just havnt found out what it is yet.

The human race is still at an extremily primative stage in its development at this point in time.. These things your saying, are all ordered. Things like twins, a time will come when we will have the ability to control the appearence and personality of new born children. A time will come when we do finally understand what makes finger prints the way they are. Cloud placement is easy, it depends solely on atmospheric conditions such as wind.

Grass and trees? Whats random about those?

If you cant see that there is no observable chaos in this world, YOU arnt seeing the whole picture....

Like I said, you arent seeing the world for what it is. You are seeing the world through what you have been taught it is.

But dont worry though... Man, I dont know why you're so adamant about proving me wrong. The difference between you and me is I see my perspective and your perspective, and they are both correct to me. You see only one perspective, and it is correct to you, so any other perspective logically can't be seen as correct, even if you dont understand it.

For what I've been taught it is? Where are you getting that bull from..

If I knock over the pen that is sitting upright on my desk, there will be a cause, which will ultimatly result in an effect where the pen will fall. Even a 5 year old child could understand that. Its not something you need to be taught, its just a natural law of physics observable by anybody on planet earth no matter where or how intelligent they are.

Cause and effect = order.

Shit, even the way you are typing your message each time you reply is forumating an ordered approach towards getting your point across.

Chaos, in the context your using it in, doesent even exist.

Nothing in this universe is truely random.

Its not that I dont see your argument for what it is, it has nothing to do with my ability to percieve the world for what it is.. It has to do with you being incorrect, but unwilling to admit it....

OK, im going to try something similar to that right now and knock a pen off the table as an experiment.

Alright, ive done it a number of times now. You look at that and say "Finger moved towards pen, came into contact with it. Contact, kinetic energy and gravity caused the pen to move, and fall off the table."

I look at it and see an amazing, intriguing mystery that can never be solved and is overloading my brain. A mystery that I could never explain in words. Here are some aspects:

- Why am I right here, right now, in this time period, talking to you on a machine and pushing a pen off a table anyway?

- Why, no matter how hard I try to push the pen in the same place each time from the same position, does it fall differently and land differently each time?

- Why, no matter if it was done in perfectly controlled circumstances, will the pen never ever ever ever fall in the same way and land in the same position? Even in a completely controlled environment (which I of course dont have) it will never land in exactly the same position.

- What is the pen made of?

- What is "pen"?

- Why has this particular pen, out of every single identical one of its kind, ended up next to me so I can perform this experiment?

- Why is there carpet for the pen to land on?

- Why is there cement under the carpet?

- Why were those exact rocks and fibres used in manufacturing this carpet and cement?

- Why am I at this position, why arent I slightly to the left, or at the other side of the room?

- Why did I put my desk here?

- Why are all of the fibres of the carpet positioned in that exact way?

- What would be happening if I didnt know you?

- What was the trigger a million years ago that caused me, the pen, etc to be here?

- What was the trigger of that trigger?

- What was the trigger of that trigger?

- What triggered the creation of the word trigger?

- Why have I used that pen the exact number of times so that the ink in it is where it is?

- Why did it hit my computer on the way down sometimes, and not other times, even if it was in pretty much the same position?

- Why were you born? Why are you you? Why would you be arguing with me right now?

- Why am I asking these questions? Surely all of this is trivial, yet im still asking these questions.

- How is it that this language was created in such a way that something else isnt the word for pen?

- Why out of all the possibilities did I choose to live in this place?

- Why does the pen have a yellow section?

- Why does the pen have a blue light in it?

- What is the origin of "blue"?

- Why is the pen partly metallic?

- Why is my table made of wood?

- What tree is my table?

- What tree created the seed that created the tree that is my table?

- What tree's seed created that seed?

- What is the origin of trees?

- What caused my brain to think of these things about pens and trees?

- What guy built the machine that built my pen?

- Why was it him?

- What person was responsible for desiging my desk?

- What person is that persons father?

- What person was the first person in that persons line of origin?

- Why is the weather like it is at this exact time I am dropping the pen?

- Why is there a bottle of water near where the pen landed?

- Which water of all the water in the world is inside that bottle, and why is that so?

- Why is that bottle filled to the exact point it is filled to, why didnt I drink slightly more or slightly less?

- Why can some of these questions be answered, while others can't?

- Why did I think of these questions to write down, out of all the questions in my head?

- Why did I get home at 2:20pm today just in time to start talking to you and eventually end up pushing a pen off a table?

- Did I really get home at 2:20pm, or was my phone wrong?

- Does 2:20pm exist?

- Why did you just say to me on msn you want me to be done soon, which is causing me to end this senseless question asking at this question?

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Obviously most of those questions, could in theory, be answered. But now, come to think of it, I didnt explain myself well. I saw the pen drop. Why? You can give it order, you can attribute it to cause and effect and go back to the beginning of time, but WHY? Not even why, how? Not even how, it just is. My mind is chaotic, overloaded with mystery, yet at complete peace in pushing this pen off the table. It just happened, I find solace in seeing the pen unexplainably move in the air and unexplainably land in a position on the floor.

Cause: A push.
Effect: Pen falls off table, lands on floor.

Perfectly right. Yet just a simple experiment like this causes an infinity of thought and mystery, let alone every slight movement in the world. You ever watch tall grass blow in the wind? It goes nuts. It goes this way, that way, any way. Cause? Wind. Effect? Grass moves. But that grass is eternal, in that it started (in whatever way) aeons ago, and a single blade of grass will leave its mark on the universe forever, in whatever way.

Call it order, call it chaos, call it whatever you want. Doesnt bother me.

1. There is an explenation for every single one of those points you made. I would answer them all if I had the time. But I dont.

2. How do you know there is an infinite amount of causes? (answer: you dont)

All you do know, is that, there WAS a cause, and there WAS an effect in a constant string for as long as humanity can theorhetically figure based on all observable information available to us. Any longer is beyond our reasoning, therefore irrelevant in this argument.

YOU, say we are both right. HOWEVER.

The term chaos you are using, in the context you use it in. Literally means 'to be random' in the english language. It is not a malleable term that you can just throw around as though it has a number of different meanings.

You are, in effect, saying that the universe is compleatly random in all accounts... When I have proved, countless times it isnt at all..

We cant both be right buddy..

Your gonna have to admit at some point your wrong...

You know, I might draw a diagram of your cause and effect. Hold on a second.

OK. Each one of those lines is a line of cause and effect that goes back into the past and forward into the future. What each line is composed of in the context of the diagram is countless red dots (events). Of course, in this diagram I wasnt able to draw every single line of cause and effect that lead up to this event, because there would be way too many. Likewise I wasnt able to draw every effect.

Every event on each line has a similar structure to this red dot's causes and effects, in the form of other lines of cause and effect.

So if you use your imagination, you get this mind blowingly infinite (infinite due to the flow of time) and complex, web-like system of cause and effect. Thats what I see when I think of cause and effect. On one hand its orderly, in the way you describe, on the other its this infinite, chaotic mess of strings and events.

The only reason you call it a chaotic mess, is because your brain cant comphrehend the complexity of it all..

But like I've said countless times, dont call chaos just becuase its beyond the human ability to take it all in at once.

Thats like an amature blaming the instrument for his inability to play.

Man, thats what ive been saying.

I call infinite complexities chaos, you call them order. You arent wrong, im not wrong. It doesnt matter at all what term we use.

Is it really infinite though?

How do you know that?

As long as there is something, it is infinite.

If at some point for some reason there is nothing at all, not even existence, this wont matter, will it?

It wouldnt be infinite then.

And still there is no chaos....

Man, I feel sorry for you if you can't see the chaos.