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05-20-06, 08:25 PM
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#1
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I have a lot to learn...
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Religious Argument: Zen Buddhism vs other, and your criticism.
IP: 0B90 96F9
In this thread I will be arguing FOR Zen Buddhism.
So you all ask questions, I will answer them, make disputes and challenges and I will argue against them the best I can. I'm doing this because I have been reading up on zen, and so far I have not come across a single thing that I find hard to believe/doesnt make sense. You guys might think of something I didnt.
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05-20-06, 09:44 PM
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#2
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IP: 085D 358C
to me, religion isnt about reading stuff that makes sense to you, its more about faith... but word, im really open about other religions and i look forward to reading this thread once there are some more posts...
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"Motherfuck a struggle, lets dance in the rain"
★ G ☆ U ★ N ☆ N ★ E ☆ R ★  |
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05-20-06, 09:46 PM
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#3
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OYD
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IP: 2B7A 2084
What does your faith have to do with me?
Nothing. |
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05-20-06, 09:47 PM
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#4
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GG Haterz
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IP: 35AE F325
Meh, there is a lot about Buddhism that I like. I think that it is one of the best religions, but it is also one of the most hardest to understand and to follow. To me, it seems impossible for a person to not enjoy life, and that we are here to die and that is it. We are trying to reach nirvana in order to quit the life cycle, but I mean, I don't know about other people, but I enjoy my life and I enjoy where I'm at. Buddhism makes it seem like all life is is suffering, which is not what I believe.
But I do have a question, what happens if the human race dies out? Where does Buddhism come in to play then?
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For Anyone Who Wants to Talk to Me  ^^I think this explains my view on gangster rap perfectly. |
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05-20-06, 09:50 PM
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#5
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IP: 3881 400B
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Not too sure, since karma has a lot to do with it too. I guess the people who were bad or misbehaved would turn into animals. Not sure about the good people though.
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i'm bored. |
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05-20-06, 10:00 PM
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#6
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I have a lot to learn...
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IP: 0B90 96F9
Quote:
It's not at all about not enjoying life. True, Zen Buddhism states that life is mainly suffering, caused by ourselves. Think about it for a second. If I desire a nice juicy steak, but I dont have it... Then I suffer (of course its a very small scale suffering, but never the less). If I didnt want that steak, then I wouldnt be suffering because I couldnt have it. You get what I mean? We aren't here just to die. Reincarnation means that when we are born it isnt a beginning and when we die it isnt an end, life is more like a path with no beginning or end. (if you have questions about reincarnation, ask them. I once thought it was stupid as well before I actually found out what it is). I'll tell you something. I never realized how depressed I was, until a few days ago at work I applied some Zen principles. I was no longer sad, or overjoyed (being overjoyed means after that period ends, you suffer because you want to feel that joy again), bad things happened and it didnt bother me, I was completely and utterly happy. Content if you will. I didnt want anything, I didnt need anything, I just... lived. Since then I havent been able to get that feeling again... Like ill have it for a while then think of something and it will go away, or ill try to acheive it and by trying ill fail. It's wierd. I tried meditating, and after about 45 minutes my mind was empty, focused, and I had that feeling again. Quote:
Where does any religion come into play when the human race dies out?
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05-20-06, 10:55 PM
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#7
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GG Haterz
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IP: 35AE F325
I honestly like the idea of reincarnation cuz to me it seems like a second chance.
I guess I'm too addicted to life's pleasures. I don't mind the pain, because in the end it is worth it. Didn't Buddah preach that love is an allusion?
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For Anyone Who Wants to Talk to Me ^^I think this explains my view on gangster rap perfectly. |
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05-21-06, 07:20 PM
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#9
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Engineer / Club Promoter
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IP: 2977 80E3
Zen Buddhism isn't a "faith". It's not a "religion". its the exact opposite. one can be a christian, or a muslim, hindu, or baptist and still practice zen. Like Mother Theresa, the prophet mohamed, ghandi, and Martin Luther King.
Zen buddhism spells out the key to being at perfect peace with the world around you through rational thought called The Four Noble Truths. Those truths state things anyone can relate to such as "there is suffering" (suffering meaning 'unhappiness') and "There is a source of suffering" which is attachment to desire, and more. Through practice of these noble truths one can attain a rapture you didnt' even think were possible. Everything brings rapture when you have found the logic in it. BTW, Buddha is not a god, though he is regarded as one. He himself states essentially "I am of flesh and blood. I am not a god. I have seen the beauty and brilliance of the face of god through these 4 noble truths that hold true throughout the universe." Buddhists view statues of buddha as the reminder of the path to enlightenment found through the 4 noble truths, NOT a tribute to Buddha as a man. You'd never figure that a physical statue can be transparent huh? such is the selfless beauty of Zen.
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I Turn Rappers into Legends Welcome to the Business world. www.soundclick.com/apexx ^Make no mistake about it, the boy is a fuckin BEAST^ The Rush Ent. Last edited by Apexx : 05-21-06 at 07:25 PM. |
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05-21-06, 10:49 PM
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#10
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™
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IP: 085D 358C
^ good explanation, im really interested in this...
__________________
"Motherfuck a struggle, lets dance in the rain"
★ G ☆ U ★ N ☆ N ★ E ☆ R ★ |
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05-21-06, 11:14 PM
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#11
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I have a lot to learn...
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IP: 4345 C92F
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I am aware of it's nature. What i'm asking here, is are there any downfalls? Holes? That I may be missing. I'm about a hair away from taking the zen path. Actually to tell you the truth, i'm already beginning to practice it, I just made this thread out of interest. Quote:
I suppose if there were no humans left you would be forced to go into one of the other "worlds." It's a lot like the perception of heaven and hell. From memory (I may be a bit off, but im pretty sure this is correct) the worlds are: -Hells -(I think there might be a world of Ghouls or Spirits or something here) -Animals -Humans -Gods (and Demi-Gods) So, just like in Christianity, if all lifeforms on earth were to die you could descend into hell or ascend to the land of the Gods (heaven, if you will). However it is believed that the prime existence for reaching Nirvana is human, because you experience both joy and suffering and have the best scope on shedding your desires. In the land of the Gods, they experience pleasure extensively so it is difficult to realize the truths and obtain enlightenment. And in the land of Hells, all they experience is suffering so it's hard for them to obtain enlightenment as well. A zen master probably would have answered that question with "Don't ask stupid questions." -_-
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Last edited by Terumoto : 05-21-06 at 11:18 PM. |
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05-22-06, 01:20 AM
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#12
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Engineer / Club Promoter
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IP: 2977 80E3
Quote:
make no mistake about it, my post was intended for those who were still unclear as to exactly what buddhism really is. discussing it with you would be preaching to the chior and fruitless for the both of us. oh yeah and as far as "holes" go, I my self saw none during the process. Then again, I was more about the zen, which is the part most ambitious buddhists lose sight of. They absorb them selves with the "god" and reincarnation parts, which I found no interest in. That's the beauty of buddhism. Buddha states that one dosen't have to persue god in order to be at peace and bursting with joy. buddhism is also the only such system that I've seen that also puts you in the good graces of any god you may chose to believe in short of luciferianism which sees strength in destruction and suffering. I can live with that  Quote:
Well for starters Buddhism teaches that Heaven and Hell are both states of mind. If you experience dukka (unhappiness) you are in the hell that you have made for your self. if you do not have any desires to control you, you are in the heaven that you have made for your self. A soul can not possibly "go" to a heaven or hell since a soul has no concept of pleasure or pain - concepts for a physical form. as for reincarnation, buddhism states that your soul may not (and usually does not) reincarnate in a human body, you typically reincarnate as an animal, plant, or insect, depending on your level of enlightenment in your prior life time. The lower your enlightenment, the more simple the life form, the higher, the more complex. Reaching enlightenment frees you of the limits of the physical forms and moves you into the next plane of existance.
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I Turn Rappers into Legends Welcome to the Business world. www.soundclick.com/apexx ^Make no mistake about it, the boy is a fuckin BEAST^ The Rush Ent. |
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05-22-06, 02:05 AM
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#13
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Bangs like bikini attol
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IP: 7401 A3D2
Hinduism and its off-shoots are often among the best religions the world has to offer.
One of the main reasons for this is the simple fact that unlike almost all other religions, they are compleatly open to improvement and re-calculations based on older ideas. Which is the same as science, the wise know they can never be perfect. Which is why, while I highly reguard the buddhist belief's, I am living in this world not as a product of what I am told to believe, rather in relation to what I experience and understand on terms of my own life. Everyone's journey is different... And very few philosophys are ever ultimate truths with no margin of error. So I wouldnt associate myself with one school of thought when I can instead read into everything and gain a far broader perspective..... |
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05-22-06, 02:22 AM
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#14
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Engineer / Club Promoter
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IP: 2977 80E3
Quote:
are you under the impression that buddhism came from hinduism? because it definitely did not. that's actually the other way around. as for 'philosiphies' you're right, very few contain absolute truths. But dont' confuse this for an absence of aboslute truth. if you se someone furious, or..say..crying in a heap on the ground, in both cases it's safe to say tht "there is suffering" meaning "unhappiness". That would be a fact, there definitely is unhappiness. Then you go to the next noble truth, there is a source of unhappiness, which is also a fact, since something caused this unhappiness you see or are experiencing - attachment to desire. There is a path to the cessitation of suffering which is the release of desire - another truth. when you don't desire something, you can not be unhappy by a lack of it. and finally there is a cessitation to suffering meaning the suffering has ended - once realized this also becomes another absolute truth. the basic breakdown of the 4 noble truths. your perspective cant' possibly get any wider than through zen or 'becoming one with the universe'. the path to enlightenment is the shedding of the narrow perspective in the first place.
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I Turn Rappers into Legends Welcome to the Business world. www.soundclick.com/apexx ^Make no mistake about it, the boy is a fuckin BEAST^ The Rush Ent. |
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05-22-06, 03:18 AM
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#15
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I have a lot to learn...
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IP: 0B90 96F9
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Exactly. That is why I have focused on the Zen sect of Buddhism, which (as you probably know) is centred around the self (that ironically, doesnt exist). After reading a large portion of the Sutras for myself, I saw that Buddha never intended to be worshipped as a God. Other sects of Buddhism that praise Siddharta, the first Buddha, I think are going about things the wrong way. And in Zen temples and Monasteries, the Buddha shrines are there as a mere reminder of the four noble truths and the eightfold path to enlightenment. I see Buddhahood as more of a state, Buddhahood aka enlightenment. Quote:
Don't forget the non-earthly worlds of Gods and Hells. Quote:
I actually highly regard Buddhism because it is the most pure. The modern day Sutras are highly accurate depictions of their original counterparts, because of the simple fact there has been no need to hide or change any part of them, and effort was actually made to preserve them. I believe at their roots, all the major religions (Muslim, Hinduism, Christianity etc, excluding religions like Morman, jedi, those crap ones) are essentially trying to say the same thing, the thing which is conveyed in Zen Buddhism. I'm not sure if you or Apexx have come across the story of a Zen Master (either Ryokan or Hakuin, can't remember) being showed a portion of the bible by one of his disciples. It was some of Jesus' teachings and parables, and the Zen Master said that whoever said those words was an enlightened man. The sad thing is the bible has been messed around and tampered with so much its hard to distinguish truth from fallacy. A prime example of truth found in the Bible is Matthew chapter six, where Jesus is laying down a few of his philosophies. They are uncannily similar to their respective categories in the sayings of Buddha in the Sutras. If you scour the bible, so many connections can be made to Buddhism in particular, as well as Hinduism and Islam and, im sure, others. The difference is these ideas conveyed in the bible are quite vague, whereas in Buddhism the themes and beliefs are the same but are put across in a crystal clear way. Im probably not explaining myself very well, but this is something I have found to be true. As you said, the prime difference between Buddhism and its counterparts is that Zen Buddhism does not say that it is the right way, and the others are wrong. Quote:
I used to be like that, until the broad knowledge I had gained, I found condensed into ultimate truth in Zen Buddhism.
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