Would you rather try rebuiling a country after a non conventional war, or take actions that would deter that posibility? Sadaam screwed himself, he had every opprotunity to come clean, he used the threat against us, and in the end it back fired on him. We do have every reason to suspect his involvemnt in those programs. I never stated that the nukes, and other reasons were not important or even a factor. I was just showing you the depth and scope of the offensive. Pictures have surfaced of war planes that should not have been in the Iraqi arsenal, also listed in the UN resoulution. I do not see how you can call the war illegal, or unjust, when as a mean to halt the offensive of the first gulf war, these resolutions were drafted. They violated these resolutions time and time again, which puts us in a position to wage war if we so chose. Clinton could have but decided not to, instead he goes into action in another arena. I really don't think most americans are in the posistion to run a country or make thses decisions. We look to our leaders for that, we do have a say, but is it our right in this country to add War on the ballot? I like that fact that we can disagree, that's why we fight to keep our freedoms, because in the cold era of the USSR, your comments would get you and your entire family relocated to prison in the snow. Our system is far from pefect, we need to fix many aspects of our own country, but first need to ensure a future for the country. That sometimes comes with a huge price tag, often War...

Either way your arguement is weakened by the fact that congress had already (privately) voted to go to war, prior to the statements the President made in that now famous address. Democrates and Republicans both agreed on the war in congress, now that the election is upon us, they need to find some ground to assualt the President and or the current adminsitration, hence the attack of the Presidents address (claiming WMD's as a concern)...

__________________
FUCKA BABYLON BANDIT!!!

he got you there with facts and backed it up, sthu mr legend, like opey said, you had a good argument untill you brought up the racial shit, id stop while you ahead, other wise good argument

I haven't said anything racial!!!!!
I said I didn't wanna get racial with this in the thread. I was very careful notto use specific races as examples, and I also said poverty knows no color. Anyway If I lied to the cops to prevent myself from dying or to prevent something from happening, that's perjury, and they'll get me.

Don't you think if the American public was informed of what the hell is really going on we would have made a decision. But nooooo, the gov't tricked the UN, the rest of the world and US. And that's why we don't trust them.


Hey the President has been know to abuse alcohol, and drugs in his past! If I abuse those things I'll never get a real Job. They say You can go anywhere in the country you want, but the fact of the matter is you have to have money to do anything. To get that good education, someone has to pay for you to go to college. To even drive now a days you have to have insurance (which is required by law). Yes I HAVE to pay $230 a month, just IN CASE I get in an accident. And if I get caught without it it's a minimum of $500 fine. See If there is a system offered by the gov't, it's defunct, causerich people don't fuck with "systems" they live a privatized life.
To be continued tomorrow...

^the fact that we went to war and found nothing is really a moot point......can't exactly take it back now can we? I think the main argument now should be how the operation was botched. We went looking for WMD and didn't find any, we are also searching for any terrorist cells in the area which may or may not have links to Al-Qaieda, oh yeah and we were supposed to murk Saddam. Have we eliminated some terrorists? A few. Did we kill Saddam? No, but we got his sons. Now Bush has to turn around and tuck his tail between his legs and ask the UN for support because we need money and aid. Yes we are the only country in an unstable region right now, our troops deserve the help. However, why should the UN help us, we were the ones who opted to go to war with or without their support. I don't blame Bush for everything that is bad in this country, and in regards to this war I think he had the American peoples best interest at heart, but i do think he jumped the gun. No the common citizen should not have War on the Ballot, but our leaders must take heed and understand that if they are going to take drastic action then we are going to want results. Bounce you are in the loop and better informed then most, but the average person dosen't like to come home to see troops dying in a country AFTER the conflict has been deemed resolved. That breeds a feeling of distrust and resentment.

As far as healthcare and such goes (i know you tried to get away from that bounce, sorry) the problem looks this way to me: The government is not directly responsible for the health care crisis right now. In my opinion the only thing that they have failed to do is come up with reasonable controls for the private sectors, namely insurance companies who underwrite malpractice insurance. Right now with a staggering amount of physicians being sued for malpractice, malpratice insurance rates have soared causing doctors to charge more. Companies who offer health care to their employees have opted to pass these increases on to workers (typical). This happens ever so often until major corporations such as GE strike and then the board of directors sometimes cut back upper managements salaries. The problem isn't so much that government isn't trying to provide dependable affordable health care, the problem is that our current system of health care is flawed. Caps for malpractice awarded has been proposed to eliminate this problem and has been adopted in some states, New York for example, now the issue becomes what dollar amount can we place on a human life?
These are tough questions that I know I can't answer, that's why I vote, like bounce said we have leaders to lead us, let them, don't complain unless you make your voice heard by taking advantage of the democratic process. Unlike bounce I am a leftist, I prefer a large government because face it the states are to "immature" to handle problems on their own, and bigger government dosen't neccesarily mean less privacy, at least not pertaining to your individual lives, it means that states won't be left to handle every situation on their own, and those who have wealth won't be able to sneak around and do things they don't want the rest of us to see!

I know bounce will probably pick this apart and tear my every argument to shreds but so be it I feel up to a good debate right now!

legend, the reason we so called tricked them and why the goverment doesnt inform us is all in the writing of machaivelli, he states a leader must not inform the people of the full situation becuse the people would not know how to react, and in the end it will all benifit us, give the president some credit, even if you dont agree with him, he is our leader, respect him and his decions or get the FUCK OUT

prophit, you ever think that just maybe, becuse we gave them all the time in the world, that they were smart and got all of there shit outta there, befor we declared anything on them,they were broadcasting new scuds and shit on live television throughout the world, even tho he was a dumbass to have shit with us, hes not that much of a dumbass, infact if you look at it (assumption not fact) looks like he started this, got all of his stuff out now the US is empty handed, killed inocents (very very very few might i add) and lost 250+ of our own, kinda makes us look bad in the arab world huh???

Whatever, Bush is a the worse president so far in my lifetime. I mean we're supposed to getting better. The Economy was the best it ever was b 4 him. Everybody was working, they raised minimum wage twice, technology was advancing at a blazing speed (the internet was commercialized and made more main stream). And the only thing they could put on Clinton was when he got his dick sucked. Yet they always find a way to blame todays problems on yesterdays administration.

If you hired me to do a service for you, and I fuck up, I can't blame it on the last guy!!!!!I called being responsible...

You see middle to upper class America is kept blind, because they got money, and money MOVES shit. The lower class is shitted on and they don't care if we know, because we don't have any money to MOVE anything.

Then Bush get's in office, (by cheating first of all), and mysteriously 100's of thousand people get laid off. Planes crash into the trade center. Corporate crimes run rampant, and no one is prosecuting them. Then we not only go to war, but we don't find the people responsible for it or the Weapons which were the main reason we went in.

So now we look like Jack asses to the world especially the people who opposed the war.

Free? who do you trust? Bush himself said that he was misinformed by the CIA. So the info that your spittin NOW can be more bullshit.

WASHINGTON, Sept. 17 — President Bush said Wednesday that there was no evidence that former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was involved in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, disputing an impression that critics say the administration tried to foster to justify the war against Iraq. MSN.com today NEWS

^ keep reading those media outlets only, and be force feed someone's agenda. I Just ask that you look at both sides of the media. Then make educated opinions, those made only based on the biased media such as MSN and other liberal icons, are force feed.

__________________
FUCKA BABYLON BANDIT!!!

This is the head line of the day, everynews source reported on this. So it's not like their lying

THATS WHAT YA BOY SAID!!!

Read below for some enlightenment...
(snippet just for your info)


Angry Democrats: Florida and Beyond
Why is the left so mad?
BY ROBERT L. BARTLEY
Monday, September 15, 2003 12:01 a.m. EDT

Mr. Bartley is editor emeritus of The Wall Street Journal. His column appears Mondays in the Journal and on OpinionJournal.com.


What happened in Florida was that George Bush won every official recount, a result confirmed by the press-sponsored unofficial recounts. Also, Mr. Bush didn't start the lawsuits; Al Gore fired the first writ.
In the same election, John Ashcroft declined to go to court after he lost his Senate seat because votes for the dead man listed on the ballot were counted for his widow instead. Even Richard Nixon persuaded reporter Earl Mazo to abandon the story that John F. Kennedy's forces stole the 1960 election in Illinois and Texas.
By contrast Mr. Gore went to court, asking for additional recounts in specified Democratic counties where 2-1 votes of election boards could find new Gore votes in "dimpled chads." He ordered up a smear campaign against Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris, and pursued his litigation until even the activist Florida Supreme Court split 4-3, with a blistering dissent from its chief judge.
The Supreme Court stepped in to stop the chaos, ruling by a 7-2 majority that what the Florida court had chartered was unconstitutional. Two of the seven had their own ideas about the proper rules, but the five-member majority closed recounts summarily and let Ms. Harris certify a 537-vote victory for George Bush.
The media recounts found that Mr. Bush won by 493 votes. Mr. Bush also won, this tally determined, under an honest recount of votes in the counties the Gore lawsuits had selected. It did construct a Gore victory scenario if you counted spoiled ballots. But if you entertain "what if" scenarios, you have to remember that many Republican voters were dissuaded from voting when the television networks called the election for Gore before the polls had closed in the western panhandle counties. While the Florida election was excruciatingly close, it is simply not true that the Supreme Court let Mr. Bush steal it.

Angry Democrats may have convinced themselves otherwise, but again, why? The Democratic anger must have deeper roots, fit for speculation in a future column. When Democrats assert that the Republicans will do anything to win, their complaint is relevant only in terms of what psychologists call "projection," finding your own faults in others.

I rest my case

Now your jumping from the abscence of WMD's to 9/11 involvement from Iraq. You are not proving anything here other than your ability to dick ride the media. Bush never pointed the finger at Iraq for 9/11, it's was "The base" or Osama's little network. So what ground does this gain you, in your pursiut to bash Bush? It was the public misconception fueled by the media bias from the left that has tied the two. Please doyou not acknowledge a bias in your media? If not you are out numbered 3 to 1 in every gallop poll taken on this issue. So where does that place you, way way behind, not only in times but in awareness. Please bring something solid into this debate, and then maybe you might get me to agree with you on the issue.


So I found a poll result posted earlier this week by Gallup (www.gallup.com), but now only accessible to Gallup subscribers. The firm’s September 8-10 survey of 1,025 adults discovered that when asked what they “think the news media is?”, 45 percent replied “too liberal,” compared to a piddling 14 percent who said they see the media as “too conservative.” And 39 percent expressed the view that the news media are “just about right.”
posted by media watch dogs

yes every news source source reported it but not in the same context. every source takes one sentence that can be compromised and bends it to their will. this is done in the political arena as well as entertainment. Here's an example...

I'm an up n coming white rapper. In an interview I am asked how I feel about racial slang being used in music. a sentence from my response reads "I would never call a black man a nigger and I think it's wrong for anyone to do so."

Now a periodical that supports a rival entertainer has a headline that says "OPEY SAYS NIGGER!!"

yes this is true but what context was it in? What was the meaning behind what I said? Now one headline won't do much but give a couple years of effort to slandering my name and I have half the country believing that I'm a terrible person.

this is what happens with the president. He gives hundreds of speaches. If you only twist one sentence from every speach you can do a lot of damage. you need to realize that you are nothing but a pawn right now in the liberal agenda. You really need to do more research because all your posts lack facts. Your responses are opinions only. You can't even tell me how exactly you blame bad economy and the WTC on Bush. you speak only on emotion. you have not brought one rational argument about Bush. Your words are almost quoted from the liberal media.

__________________
<center><img src="http://www.rapbattles.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5068&stc=1"><p>Featuring Splivit Jams Artists: OpeY, Mystah Biggs, Chassis, July, Grimes<p>...and Pills the Doughboy, Kronik, Nimrod, Papi Stores, Young Cell, Skillz, Tony Ccino, Cin Laden, Cel Spit Fire, Clockwork <br>...Plus Many More...</center>