OK, im going to try something similar to that right now and knock a pen off the table as an experiment.

Alright, ive done it a number of times now. You look at that and say "Finger moved towards pen, came into contact with it. Contact, kinetic energy and gravity caused the pen to move, and fall off the table."

I look at it and see an amazing, intriguing mystery that can never be solved and is overloading my brain. A mystery that I could never explain in words. Here are some aspects:

- Why am I right here, right now, in this time period, talking to you on a machine and pushing a pen off a table anyway?

- Why, no matter how hard I try to push the pen in the same place each time from the same position, does it fall differently and land differently each time?

- Why, no matter if it was done in perfectly controlled circumstances, will the pen never ever ever ever fall in the same way and land in the same position? Even in a completely controlled environment (which I of course dont have) it will never land in exactly the same position.

- What is the pen made of?

- What is "pen"?

- Why has this particular pen, out of every single identical one of its kind, ended up next to me so I can perform this experiment?

- Why is there carpet for the pen to land on?

- Why is there cement under the carpet?

- Why were those exact rocks and fibres used in manufacturing this carpet and cement?

- Why am I at this position, why arent I slightly to the left, or at the other side of the room?

- Why did I put my desk here?

- Why are all of the fibres of the carpet positioned in that exact way?

- What would be happening if I didnt know you?

- What was the trigger a million years ago that caused me, the pen, etc to be here?

- What was the trigger of that trigger?

- What was the trigger of that trigger?

- What triggered the creation of the word trigger?

- Why have I used that pen the exact number of times so that the ink in it is where it is?

- Why did it hit my computer on the way down sometimes, and not other times, even if it was in pretty much the same position?

- Why were you born? Why are you you? Why would you be arguing with me right now?

- Why am I asking these questions? Surely all of this is trivial, yet im still asking these questions.

- How is it that this language was created in such a way that something else isnt the word for pen?

- Why out of all the possibilities did I choose to live in this place?

- Why does the pen have a yellow section?

- Why does the pen have a blue light in it?

- What is the origin of "blue"?

- Why is the pen partly metallic?

- Why is my table made of wood?

- What tree is my table?

- What tree created the seed that created the tree that is my table?

- What tree's seed created that seed?

- What is the origin of trees?

- What caused my brain to think of these things about pens and trees?

- What guy built the machine that built my pen?

- Why was it him?

- What person was responsible for desiging my desk?

- What person is that persons father?

- What person was the first person in that persons line of origin?

- Why is the weather like it is at this exact time I am dropping the pen?

- Why is there a bottle of water near where the pen landed?

- Which water of all the water in the world is inside that bottle, and why is that so?

- Why is that bottle filled to the exact point it is filled to, why didnt I drink slightly more or slightly less?

- Why can some of these questions be answered, while others can't?

- Why did I think of these questions to write down, out of all the questions in my head?

- Why did I get home at 2:20pm today just in time to start talking to you and eventually end up pushing a pen off a table?

- Did I really get home at 2:20pm, or was my phone wrong?

- Does 2:20pm exist?

- Why did you just say to me on msn you want me to be done soon, which is causing me to end this senseless question asking at this question?

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Obviously most of those questions, could in theory, be answered. But now, come to think of it, I didnt explain myself well. I saw the pen drop. Why? You can give it order, you can attribute it to cause and effect and go back to the beginning of time, but WHY? Not even why, how? Not even how, it just is. My mind is chaotic, overloaded with mystery, yet at complete peace in pushing this pen off the table. It just happened, I find solace in seeing the pen unexplainably move in the air and unexplainably land in a position on the floor.

Cause: A push.
Effect: Pen falls off table, lands on floor.

Perfectly right. Yet just a simple experiment like this causes an infinity of thought and mystery, let alone every slight movement in the world. You ever watch tall grass blow in the wind? It goes nuts. It goes this way, that way, any way. Cause? Wind. Effect? Grass moves. But that grass is eternal, in that it started (in whatever way) aeons ago, and a single blade of grass will leave its mark on the universe forever, in whatever way.

Call it order, call it chaos, call it whatever you want. Doesnt bother me.

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1. There is an explenation for every single one of those points you made. I would answer them all if I had the time. But I dont.

2. How do you know there is an infinite amount of causes? (answer: you dont)

All you do know, is that, there WAS a cause, and there WAS an effect in a constant string for as long as humanity can theorhetically figure based on all observable information available to us. Any longer is beyond our reasoning, therefore irrelevant in this argument.

YOU, say we are both right. HOWEVER.

The term chaos you are using, in the context you use it in. Literally means 'to be random' in the english language. It is not a malleable term that you can just throw around as though it has a number of different meanings.

You are, in effect, saying that the universe is compleatly random in all accounts... When I have proved, countless times it isnt at all..

We cant both be right buddy..

Your gonna have to admit at some point your wrong...

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RIP jono, peace out bboy.
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You know, I might draw a diagram of your cause and effect. Hold on a second.

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OK. Each one of those lines is a line of cause and effect that goes back into the past and forward into the future. What each line is composed of in the context of the diagram is countless red dots (events). Of course, in this diagram I wasnt able to draw every single line of cause and effect that lead up to this event, because there would be way too many. Likewise I wasnt able to draw every effect.

Every event on each line has a similar structure to this red dot's causes and effects, in the form of other lines of cause and effect.

So if you use your imagination, you get this mind blowingly infinite (infinite due to the flow of time) and complex, web-like system of cause and effect. Thats what I see when I think of cause and effect. On one hand its orderly, in the way you describe, on the other its this infinite, chaotic mess of strings and events.

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The only reason you call it a chaotic mess, is because your brain cant comphrehend the complexity of it all..

But like I've said countless times, dont call chaos just becuase its beyond the human ability to take it all in at once.

Thats like an amature blaming the instrument for his inability to play.

__________________
RIP jono, peace out bboy.
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Man, thats what ive been saying.

I call infinite complexities chaos, you call them order. You arent wrong, im not wrong. It doesnt matter at all what term we use.

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Is it really infinite though?

How do you know that?

__________________
RIP jono, peace out bboy.
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As long as there is something, it is infinite.

If at some point for some reason there is nothing at all, not even existence, this wont matter, will it?

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It wouldnt be infinite then.

And still there is no chaos....

__________________
RIP jono, peace out bboy.
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Man, I feel sorry for you if you can't see the chaos.

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Actually.........I pity you for not being able to understand a 400 year old accepted by some of the greatest minds to ever exist on this planet fundemental 'LAW' of the physical plane we exist in.....

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RIP jono, peace out bboy.
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Man, what are you talking about?

I admitted you are correct when you call it order, I completely understand your point of view. What I didnt admit that it wasnt chaos. It can be both order and chaos at the same time. I feel sorry for you, because you are stuck. You pick a side and run yourself into the ground. I've already been convinced there is order in the universe, so what are you arguing about? Do you want to beat out every single inkling of opposite view to yours thats in me? What then?

I feel sorry for you, because you can't transcend duality.

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You know my view throughout this has been that there is no chaos..

I'm sorry that you feel sorry for me.. Because I've still yet to see any argument from you that equates to proving any form of randomness in this universe.

__________________
RIP jono, peace out bboy.
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Well then you're not looking at it in the right way.

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